gamegrene.com

I've always felt that callinga ttention to a thing (even if it's segregation or discrimination, or wahtever) makes it even more real. To be honest, I've never even considered the notion of "women in gaming" because to me a gamer is a gamer. Calling out the distinction calls attention to it, and all of a sudden we have "female gamers" and all their needs. Or "male gamers", and all their needs.

Especially with statements like this, "They have more social skills and pay more attention to other people, which helps with the whole roleplaying a character thing, and which also helps with the inherent social dynamic of roleplaying, something that many men, especially the nerdy type, generally being more focused particularly on themselves than women, have a harder time with, though men bring things to the table that women generally don't, too."

Wow. How much more false could that be? Using generalized statements like that is what creates these perceived problems. Not enough people own their own experience. Rather, they put it out in the third person so they don't have to own it by saying things like "we as gamers...", and "all men..." or "no woman would...". If what you mean to say is "They have more social skills *than me* and pay more attention to other people, which helps with the whole roleplaying a character thing, and which also helps with the inherent social dynamic of roleplaying, something that *I*, being the nerdy type, generally being more focused particularly on *myself* than women, have a harder time with, though *I* bring things to the table that women generally don't, too," then say that instead. Don't lump everyone together and speak for all of us.

Half of almost any discrimination is created by the self-perception of the one being discriminated against. There is no difference between male and female gamers and calling oneself a "female gamer", thus creating that category, is more a root of the problem as anyone doing so has now segregated themself. It's 2009, not 1979.

Not to sound harsh...I just have strong feelings on the subject of self-created discrimination, and you said you wanted to hear from everyone. LOL.

"First, something is real whether you choose to acknowledge it or not."

Still, I stand by my opinion that there really isn't any discrimination towards "female gamers". You yourself admit that you've never seen it, and I think you have a fair amount of gaming experience. There are no longer (and never were in my opinion) "male gamers" and "female gamers". There are gamers...and there aren't. Sometimes a thing isn't acknowledged but is still real. Sometimes it isn't acknowledged because it simply isn't real. If there are men that discriminate against women, that is a case of chauvinism that that one individual probably repeats across his entire experience and likely isn't limited to the female gamers he knows. I stand firm that singleing out a female gamers experience as somehow "different" from a mans creates exactly the rift and difference that is trying to be avoided. I know a lot of black people. One of them plays hockey. He *hates* being called a "black hockey player". He's a black guy...who plays hockey...end of story. Likewise for female gamers. They're no different for their gender. Insisting that they are almost demands they be treated differently, and I personally wouldn't make the time in my group for someone that demands that type of special treatment or extra time. You're at the table or you aren't. Gay, straight, man, woman, black, pikle, sandwich. Who cares?

"...so as to help fix the problem"

What problem? I still have yet to see any evidence of their being a problem despite being heavily involved in roleplaying, with a wide variety of people in a wide variety of places, for over 20 years. Waving a flag or playing a violin for all the female gamers that have been treated weird (not that you are...) is kinda...well...weird. If I was a female who gamed, I'd be all like, "Yo dude...wtf? Can we play now or what?"

"Reality is not something that is changed by our perceptions of it. "

Yes, in fact it is. Believing otherwise is to give away your own inate power to affect the world around you. Perception *is* reality. And by constantly speaking of one social ill or another, we have not drawn more attention as a society to the plights of the downtrodden...we have given those not being downtrodden each an individual niche to hide in whereby they don't have to join the rest of us and be one societal group. We have pigeon holed our culture to death, allowing others to segregate us into our interest groups and demographics so narrow that we no longer have any power as a cohesive whole. Have you considered the possibility that by singleing a group out, you have contributed to their not being accepted as part of the whole? And for those that *are* being downtrodden, we aren't helping them...we're pointing at them and saying "damn, that sucks. Hey everyone! There's a female gamer over here and she's being treated poorly! You can see the injustice inherent in the system!"

"As for the bit about third person. I'm not even talking about myself here."

Really? I think you specifically said, "I think in general women are better suited to the roleplaying hobby than men..."

You can see how starting a phrase with the words "I think..." would lead someone to believe you were talking about yourself and what you think? And as for the rest of that paragraph; if you aren't speaking about yourself, where did you recieve the authority to speak for everyone else? I don't find there to be any intrinsic differences between men and women when it comes to the realm of social skills or paying attention or thinking of others before themselves. As a man, I find that statement to be offensive. I also think it lends more towards what I mentioned earlier about creating a problem by speaking of a social ill that only exists in the mind. Women don't need to be protected or coddled or agreed with. They just need to be treated as equals so we can eventually stop this whole "women do this, men do that" crap that has been infusing our society since who knows when.

Using third person generalities as a conversational tool removes the power of the experience from oneself. It allows someone to speak how they feel without directly owning their part in it. It allows them later to say, "well, I meant in general...I wasn't talking about me". I would normally now add "not that that's what you were doing..." in the spirit of diplomacy; but that is exactly what you *did* do just now, so....I dunno man.

"I assumed you would judge my intelligence high enough not to assume that I'm a babbling lunatic"

I made no comment on your intelligence. If you think that one was implied, perhaps that has to do with how you feel about yourself. Perhaps not. I don't know. I don't care either. I thought we were having an intellectual conversation, and I don't generally do that with people whose intelligence I am in doubt of.

On the topic of genereal gender characteristics; general characteristics of any kind are the *cause* of inter-whatever strife...not a cure for it. How would you feel if I said "black people eat a lot of fried chicken and grape soda and watermelon" or "asians can't drive for shit, but they're good at math". You'd think I was a racist. Yet those stereotypes are based on empirical knowledge, just like yours. I'm not calling you a chauvinist Tzuriel...but do you see where I'm going with this? I've often seen someone bemoan the problems that their intrinsic differences cause in their life, only to then be treated differently because of them in the spirit of a "show of support" from those around them. It has the opposite affect, reinforcing the stereotype even more.

I have a friend that works at a counselling center; there are many women that are treated poorly who end up with men that do it all over again. Equally as common are women that end up with men that feel they need to rescue or protect the woman. They call them White Knights, and they are just as detrimental to the recovery and well being of those women as are the abusers. They reinforce that "yes, you are different because you're a woman and you need to be protected by me and defended by me because I know what you've gone through...my dad did it to my mom" or somesuch nonsense. These women are actually councelled to get with a man that sees them as an equal and doesn't treat them differently for being a woman.

There are an equal number of men counselled at this facility.

Essentially, they are encouraged to seek the company of people that ignore their gender differences in favor of an egalitarian and equal relationship. I believe that it is *that* type of gamer that we should all be...man or woman.

"If this sounds angry, that's because it is. I don't appreciate my words taken out of context and then twisted in a way to disparage my character. I don't have hidden motives when I speak, in general. I try to just say it like it is. I'd appreciate it if people realized that."

Whoa whoa buddy. Calm down. I didn't take your words out of context. I posited a theory for further conversation. I didn't disparage your character either; anymore than you did mine by lumping all men and women together and painting them in generalities for the point of proof. I didn't think you had hidden motives either...I don't even know what that means, nor did I suggest anything of the sort. I, also, say it as I *see* it (I wouldn't assume to know how it really *is*) so can't imagine why you would be bothered by that.

I'd apologize for making you angry, but I'm simply not that powerful as to have done so. Something I said made you make yourself angry. I would apologize for that too...but I still believe everything I said.

Anyways, take it easy brother. You're too young to get mad over shit you read on the internet. *Pats Tzuriel on the back*.

It may have been presumptuous, but I can't help it when I see statements such as "the situation of women in gaming". You've shoved yourself into a corner just by saying that. Difference does not equal discrimination, but I also don't think that there needs to be a difference. I also never said discrimination is all in someones head; I said discrimination that doesn't exist is all in their head.

I also believe it`s naive to think you can bring up the ``gender bias`` topic and *not* discuss discrimination as part of it.

``And please, Scott, don't say that stereotypes are based on empirical knowledge``

Stereotypes are based on *something*. They don`t just get spun up whole cloth from nothing. So what then are they based on...ignorance isn`t the only answer to that question.

That`s all beside the original point though, which was; are women a minority in gaming. The short answer is...yes, they are. Then ones I`ve met that don`t consider themselves ``women in gaming`` blend right in and just become gamers. The ones that insist they are somehow different than the rest of us and expect to be treated differently because of it (yet bemoan the fact that they are) are absolutely a minority.

Act differently, and you will be treated differently. I can tell stories of women I`ve seen in gaming groups that strive to be the ``woman in the group`` and were treated poorly because of it by all the others at the table...including other women. Women (and men) that continually remind others around them of their gender drive me nuts. Same for anyone that plays a race, religion, or any other demographic card to constantly have attention drawn to the fact that they are *different*.

The issue of differences between the genders is very real. Does it need to be applied to roleplaying though; my answer is no, it does not. I generally have an equal number of female players as male players in my group, always have, and I`ve never treated them differently. They have all enjoyed the experience and were grateful to be treated as just another gamer.

My opinion may be at odds with yours, Tzuriel`s or anyone elses for that matter but that makes it no less valid. You said you wanted to hear from everyone, particularily people with lots of experience in the hobby. My view may not prop up your notion that female gamers are somehow different than male gamers, but I have no control over that.

For what it`s worth, I *am* trying to contructively have this conversation, but as is common on the internet the dissenting opinion is painted as destructive. I may not agree with you, but I do want to talk about this.

(you`ll have to forgive my wonky punctuation, my keyboard thinks it`s spanish this morning and is trying to excecise it`s diversity in favor of special treatment)

Whatever; I don't come across passively and make no apologies for my passion. Retracting statements is for politicians, and apologizing is for those that actually feel they're wrong. I've also re-read my first post on this topic a couple of times and see someone with a contrary opinion trying to still be part of the conversation, who then goes on to set the record straight after a knee jerk response to his contrary opinion. If I seem intolerant it's because I *am* intolerant towards people who marginalize themselves through their own self image and then bemoan the fact that they are treated differently. Not that the OP did that. Bbut my comments have been mostly on topic here, except for the ones that are to get people to stop getting on my case and accept the idea that not *every*one is going to spew rainbows from their mouth and agree with each other. Deal with it, this is the internet. People disagree here. Let's leave that alone now, I don't have time in my days to deal with the Internet Tone Police and their sensitivity. Nuff said.

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I'll agree that I've seen more female gamers in groups that are more story oriented than rules and combat oriented. I've also seen more ex-actors (males and females), straight up fantasy buffs (again, both genders), and people that haven't really tried roleplaying before in those types of groups. That being said, the crunchiest and most rules heavy player I have ever encountered was a girl. She also came from a statistics background, was a math teacher, and played tabletop battle games long before she got into roleplaying. I think it's more a question of individual preferences and how people came to the hobby than which gender they are. Many of the gamers I've met that came to RPGs from battle games are very cruncy. Those that came from other avenues are very fluffy. I myself am very fluffy and favor the story over the game, though I came from a "gaming since the cradle" background, and when I was younger it was all dungeons and dice rolls and hopefully some treasure at the end of it.

One thing I've found interesting to observe is the types of things that gamers of different genders can get away with. While it sickens me...it's a fact that it happens. A female gamemaster can do things to the female players of female characters that a male gamemaster with the same player could not do. I recall an older episode of The Game Master Show where Erin was describing a scene in her Star Wars game where she had a male gaurd ripping the clothes off of a female character (who happened to be played by a guy, but my comment is about the GM) in order to humiliate her. If a male GM had done that, especially if the player of that character had been a girl, he would likely have upset more than one person at the table. The episode is specifically on the topic of women in games, I recommend giving it a listen. She also goes on to speak about the different ways that women will engage a plot because they, growing up, took different things out of the literature they encountered. For example...knight rescues princess in fairy tale; boys focus on the knight and think about being him, girls think about the princess and how cool it would be to be rescued by a knight. It causes female gamers to approach fiction from a different angle as soon as they have the chance to participate in it (re: RPGs).

I don't really approve of that attitude, as you all know. But if it is what it is, then it is what it is. I've had just as many male players have what most people would consider "female gaming needs" as I have had female ones. In my broad experience with players, the only thing I've learned for certain is that they are all different and every time I make a generalization about any given demographic of them they completely overwrite that opinion when next we play.