Dice Queen


It is time to add new words to your gamer lexicon. Both these terms (Gaymer or Dice Queen) refer to a LGBT, which stands for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Trans-gendered, who is interested in RPGs, LARPs, CCGs, Miniatures and the many different games that make up the gaming community.

It is time to add new words to your gamer lexicon. Both these terms (Gaymer or Dice Queen) refer to a LGBT, which stands for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Trans-gendered, who is interested in RPGs, LARPs, CCGs, Miniatures and the many different games that make up the gaming community.

So you may be asking yourself why should I care? Well, as with the rest of society, LGBT folks are everywhere, including at your gaming table or behind the screen. My experiences as being a Gaymer have been positive for the most part with only of few examples of prejudices. There are benefits of LGBT players that can bring an overall different perspective to the game, and to my joy have already been included in many gaming products.

Now I have to say I am an old school RPG, since I started the D&D club in my catholic grade school. Over the years I have played in all different games and genres and I have done my best to bring some diversity to the table. I have played female characters that did not have be saved by a man, and in fact have proven themselves a vital part of the team. The gaming community has people from all walks of life and this is reflected even in the games we play. Many different games include different races that seem very inclusive with one another. But there are also racial differences which do come up. I play the only human in one game (currently playing D&D) and he is gay. His reason for being is to find his husband who disappeared a year prior to the game start. There are honest reactions from the other characters: one coming to mind first is a young girl's reaction of 'Ew'. But the main thing I have learned by being honest and open with my homosexuality is that it promotes honesty in all other areas as well.

What are the benefits of LGBT players? Well, some LGBT folks have been role-playing every moment of their lives. It is often assumed a person is heterosexual unless she or he states otherwise. So there is a natural acting ability already present. The downside is the fear and shame attached, but this is not too different with some gamers. Have you ever said you were hanging with your friends when trying to explain gaming to a non-gamer? Is it easier to let them assume you are just hanging with friends instead of trying to explain what an RPG is? Society has trouble understanding things that are different than what is more common. I know homosexuality is a minority group rather than a majority, current population figures can tell me that. But I am here also and I get to be heard as well, and the one thing I feel the LGBT community does best is include and try to listen to everyone.

What do I do as a Gay GM? Nothing very different than a normal GM, though I do have to admit to including more 'campy' humor and jokes into my games. I also include a variety of racial, social and gender types in my games. I do include LGBT characters in the game and I do not make their sexual preference to be a major plot factor, but it is included to give a truer picture of the world. I like a gaming experience that is an actual reflection of the real world. Although the situations are generally not as extreme, in a typical gaming situation how the interpersonal dialogues and relationship are handled can reflect the real world. I do make the distinction since RPGs and the kind are fantasy and I have experienced folks who have some difficulty telling the two apart.

Have I ever experienced prejudices from being a Gaymer? The simple answer is Yes. During my first few GEN-CONs I included the tag line in my game descriptions 'a game for the family, a Triangle production'. About 2-3 weeks later I received a phone call from the staff of TSR asking me to explain the significance of the phrase. Once I did they informed me that while my games would be able to still happen they would be removing the tag line from my descriptions. Another experience occurred while playing a Supers game. I decided to play a second-generation hero of a previous character. To add some role-playing flavor to the character she was a black and closeted bisexual; how's that for diversity? While the GM approved all aspects of the power of the character, he asked me to remove the role-playing aspects. No reason was given other than 'I said so', which lessened the fun of the game for me.

I, like other RPGers, like to play different types of characters and I always do my best to be inclusive of all people at my table. The minor character points are the option of the player, but all I've ever wanted was to be included so that the game will go on. So roll for initiative, the bad guys are readying their weapons.

Ridiculous. What do gays (et al) have to do with gaming? Where is the game material here? This seems like nothing more than an excuse for the author to whine about anti-gay prejudice. This may very well be a worthy cause, but it doesn't belong here. What's worse is that this is yet another example of how gays act like they want to be treated like everyone else, yet go out of their way to segregate themselves. Why should we add "Dice Queen" to our lexicons, when "gamer" works just fine? Maybe it should be "Drama Queen" instead.

Perhaps, if the article had been about how to play gay characters better, or showed that gamer attitudes toward gays differ radically from that of the greater population, or something like that, the article might have had SOME redeeming value. As it is, I'm amazed the editors let this worthless piece of tripe through.

Have to second that, Xplo. It would be nice to see a little more quality control around here. I'm not asking for rpg.net or rec.games.frp.advocacy level articles but could the editors at least *try* to avoid the complete puff pieces?

As for a GM not wanting to include gay or bi characters: That's as much their perogative as not wanting certain races or classes in their games. Maybe they don't want to deal with concocting NPC reactions to such characters or maybe they don't find it appropriate for their setting or the story they're trying to tell. Maybe they simply don't think their players can handle it. How often has the guy playing the busty lesbian (or any character played with their sex life bold faced, italicized, underlined and worn on the sleeve) delayed play while the table is reduced to geeky laughter, tasteless jokes and stupid innuendo? Sometimes even with a mature group the soap-opera-type social entanglements such characters often get into can take hours to resolve and easily throw a monkey-wrench into whatever the GM had planned (while simultaneously boring the the players without involved characters to death).

On the other hand maybe the GM is just a raging homophobe. However one thing I do know is that I definitely prefer games where sexuality is mostly de-emphasized for some of these very reasons.

Can't remember offhand. . . is this the reaction that Gamerchick's articles get? Y'know, something like "What does being a girl have to do with anything? Why say 'female gamer' when 'gamer' works just fine?"

Any difference seems worth talking about. For what it's worth (little, I'd wager ;) I'd like to see more of these detailing different experiences. Most of the RPGers and wargamers I know are middle-class white dudes, and I like reading about different experiences people have had (even it's that it didn't make a damn bit of difference).

Replying to my own message. . . rather lame (or "gay," as the kids say these days).

I just recalled that this was very much along the lines of some comments I got: "What's mini-gaming got to do with anything?" ;)

Oh man what a can of worms...

Actually I share the opinion of the two previous writers.

But, let's play devil's advocate here for a while.

Let's say you play a character who is outside the sexual norms (as defined by the society where he/she has adventures in). You can play it low key (like one of my straight players does with his ambiguous rogue character) or you, as some say, wear it on your sleeve. Well as a GM, in order to respect the time my players put into their background, I try to blend it into the plot hooks and all.

So your character is gay and is an activist. Well that is just fine and dandy for a modern game (and even then society isn't so enlightened). In the middle ages (read that before the 80's) your character is the target of gay bashing ad nauseam. And the fun in that is... ?

Ok homosexuality and bi-sexuality are probably tolerated or even praised in some parts of the gaming world (we have our theories about the elves and, Mulhorand and Chessenta).
But, for the most part, unless you created a very enlightnened and fictional universe of complete tolerance, your actively gay character is going to be in serious trouble with the church, the townsfolk, the guards etc. once he/she comes out of the closet.

That can make for a nice pieces of drama and plot twists(the gay paladin who gets persecuted for his/her "perverse morality" by the greedy bishops etc.)

But in all honesty I don't give a flying F### about sexual and religious orientations in my game, as long as they coincide with the plot or add to it.

If you continuously have to bring a perticular issue into your RPG's well maybe you need to work on the said issue, all fine by me.

But puhleeze, dice queen and gaymers? Can you get any more segregated? I don't refer to myself as a fracophone-seperatist-white-heterosexual-right-wing-male-gamer when I roleplay, I just play a friggin game! Leave me alone and let me have fun, I'll let you have yours.

This article is such a waste of electrons! You don't even deal with how gay characters should/could be portrayed realistically in a way that benefits the game.
Now that would have been a nice subject but would a fallen soo quickly into what you wrote as to make it bland.

And here I thought political righteousness died with the 90's, damn!

joel: I haven't read all of gamerchick's writing, but it seems to me that her articles are actually about gaming, not just thinly-veiled bitch sessions about how women are oppressed. If I were to see her write such an article, it would earn the same criticism.

I think that in general, gamers are the most tolerant of any segment of society. A little more gaming material and a little less grandstanding would've been nice.

I have to agree with the general consensus about 'quality control' on Gamegrene lately. I mean, what's up with that "Everquest timeline" article?? What the frickety-frack does that have to do with my paper'n'dicing?

Is it just me, or are some people reading a different article?

Summary of what I read: "Some people think there is an issue here. I am a person who would be affected by said issue, and IME it is not significant. Game on!"

The first paragraph is obviously just an attention grabber - perfectly valid writing. It's a pity some people didn't read any deeper.


Read deeper? You cannot dive into a puddle, Grasshopper.

All we're saying Masden is that there is a definite lack of depth in this article and I find it irritating.

It irritates me because if I had writen an article abour how hard it is to be a middle-aged-white-heterosexual-male all the negative reactions that have been writen here would have been "more" justified, because it's OK to criticize this perticular group.

But, the reactions I have seen here are not about the acceptance or lack of it for diversity of sexual orientation and identity. It is about the fact that this article adds little to the game, it lacks substance, period.

Gamerchick's "feminist" articles, while I often don't completely agree with the conclusions she draws had the merrit of trying to add depth and dimension to the hobby. I didn't get the impression she was whining about how hard it is to be a woman gamer.

While this article...

Zippity Doo DAH. I'm kind of shocked at the comments here.

I didn't think the article was that bad or off-topic. I will say that the author could have included a little more gaming-related material, but he wasn't that far off.

Having spent a lot of time with friends in the LGBT community, let me tell you he wasn't on any kind of soapbox. This wasn't a preachy article, and the article didn't concentrate on any discrimination the author may have felt. I have friends that go from the closet to ACT-UP. This wasn't a soap-box article.

I think the article was along the lines of one of GamerChick's first articles. Educational for those that have not had the experience of dealing with LGTB gamers. Stageb? Are you going to speak up for yourself here?

On a different topic. I don't really agree with the Gaymer lable. Seems like it could offend. I do like Dice Queen though. I'm going to have to remember that one.

Shocked? Why? Because I "dare" to dislike an article about gays, written by a gay man? Because you've been hanging around gay activists for so long that you've just naturally come to accept any opposition as prejudice or insensitivity? (I'm guessing, here.)

Not off-topic? How was it ON topic? Can you name one piece of actual game material in here? Because I can't, unless I generously pretend that "you can have GLBT characters in an RPG" is useful in and of itself. (It's about as useful as "fantasy games can have monsters in them". Like, duhhh.) One of Sam's comments, above, had more game material than the entire article, touching on discrimination in various settings and moral dilemmas for people who are gay but not "supposed" to be.. those are at least ideas for REAL roleplaying and dramatic situations and not just gimmicks.

As far as whether or not the article was whiny or preachy: I agree that it could have been much worse, but if you take away whining and preaching (and there definitely is some there), the only thing left in this article is essentially gay advertising, because it's evidently not enough for the author to just BE gay, he has to tell everyone he's gay, over and over and over again. He plays gay characters, and probably lots of them. (Granted, *he* at least should know how.. though I've often heard it said that gays don't portray themselves very well.) As a GM, he makes sexual preference part of his game, which is really saying a lot because most NPCs are usually defined by only a few words or lines of characterization. I can only imagine a scene not too unlike this: "Okay, you walk into the bar. There's a man sitting at a table in the corner; he's tall, wears a weather-stained travelling cloak, and he's gay."

And then you have his bit about "a Triangle production". This is, again, nothing more than gay advertising. If a straight man were to have a tagline about heterosexuality, it would be seen as ridiculous, even offensive; why should this be any different? And then he has the gall to call this an example of prejudice, when all he had to do was remove a line that shouldn't have been there in the first place. Real prejudice would have seen him banned from the con.

And so finally, not content with these feats, he writes this article for Gamegreen. What's the main point of the article? "I'm gay." What part of this is educational, except to the truly clueless (to whom almost anything would be educational)? How does reading this article improve my games? It doesn't.

When you boil it down, all this is is the babbling of a gay man who can't shut up about it (and probably never will). There's no depth to this article. There's nothing useful here at all. If there's anything to be shocked at, it's that anyone could actually defend this article.

No, not because you "dare". I didn't explain fully. I am more shocked at the amount of posting for this article. No one here as really (IMO) gone off on some discriminatory rant about the author.

Like I said before, he could have included some more game-related information. What he did was touch upon the "richness and diversity" (Gag! Even as a die-hard liberal that phrase just sounds to frigging PC to me.) that new people can bring to the gaming table.

It may not improve your games. I wouldn't expect every article hear to do that. Were you hoping for a how-to article on including realistic and non-stereotypical portrayals of gay or lesbian people in your game? I won't argue with you. He really could have added a lot more gaming stuff in his article.

The Triangle Production bit was a pretty good idea I thought. It was a nice way to advertise to any other LGTB people at Gen Con that another LGTB was running something. Nothing different than if I put a reference to the effect of: "This game is brought to you plumbed, leveled and on the square." (Nowhere near as elegant as Triangle productions.) What would that sentence say? That would let other Freemasons know that the DM was a Freemason as well. Nothing wrong with it. It's simply one more way groups of people quietly identify themselves with other members of the same group. In order to let other people know that I'm a gamer I have a Miskatonic University sticker in the back window of the my car. Most people won't know what it means, and won't care. Those that do know what it means, will know that a gamer drives that car. It also means that the fundo-nazis won't be able to target me as easily when I'm down south visiting relatives. Do you wear a class ring from High School or College? All of that is the same thing. The line wasn't something that needed to be banned. It was probably banned because the pink triangle is a LGTB symbol that the religious right and others against homosexuals CAN identify easily enough. However, that's probably not why TSR called him about it. They were probably checking to make sure some new game company wasn't trying to sneak into the con displaying their games without paying the exhibit hall prices.

Starhawk mentioned that the gaming community is pretty accepting of "different" people. He's right. As a group, we are really open-minded about many issues that the general public isn't. However, homosexuality is not always one of the issues gamers are open about. Vampire and the LARPS they generated have opened it up a bit, but not completely. I can't even begin to count the number of gamers I've heard defend a person of a different race with all the passion of a civil rights activist and then turn around and insult a homosexual. My own home group has some of these people. I felt like shit when I had to warn a friend of mine from high school to keep "things toned down" and my 30th birthday party because I knew a couple of others would cause some sort of scene.

Alright, now that I've spent my entire lunch break ranting away here. I DO think this article has merit. It would have undoubtedly been WAY better if there was more gaming material in it. How about the author take another stab as this article and include some game stuff? The real reason I jumped into this fray was to make sure that he didn't get scared off and stop writing for Gamegrene. We can always use some more writers, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until I've seen a selection of his articles for here.

I wouldn't expect every article here to improve my games, but it should have that potential. It should improve someone's game. What's the point of "gaming material" that doesn't help ANYONE?

As far as "richness and diversity" goes.. frankly, I don't see it. It's one thing to say that because someone has different life experiences than another, they might bring something new to the table.. but that's true of ALL people, so this is where the "duh" factor comes into play. To say that GLBT people, as a group, possess something that they can bring to a gaming table that no one else has strikes me as a little far-fetched.

It would seem to me that to let anyone write for Gamegrene IS to give those writers the benefit of the doubt. "Here's your shot, kid. Show 'em what you got." In this case, he blew it. Fortunately for him, I'm not the editor here, and the people who are the editors here will apparently let anything through as long as the writing is technically good, so if he does have anything useful to contribute as a writer, I'm sure he'll have plenty of chances to show it.

Good day. I'm the editor and the creator of Gamegrene. Xplo, don't make assumptions about what I will and won't accept, it's simply not becoming (as much to me, I bet, as I look to you for accepting this article). Thanks!

I'll assume whatever I like, thank you. I don't need your permission to draw conclusions. And if you feel the need to justify your editorial decisions to your readers, asking me to shut up is not the way to go about it.

Reeeaaaoooww!! Ftt ftt!


I did not think anyone would even read this article.
A can of worms is something I have to deal with every day of my life Steve.
One point of correction I would like to point out is that being L/G/B/T has nothing more to due with sex than being heterosexual does. Would a person that is celibate be devoid of any sexual preference since they are not practicing?

I will concede and say this article belongs more in the rant section but my editor decided to put in on the front page and to that I am shocked, floored and pleasantly surprised and to him I say thank you.

To Wooz is send big cyber hugs for being my advocate without being asked
And I agree with her. Why is there so much posting about this article? But I also say to her do not worry I am still writing and have my second article sent to my proofreader already.

I was told to write what I know and these are 2 topics that I know a lot about. And this is one article with no idea if more would follow. But since there is such reaction to this topic I can see that I have lots to write about. However I will alternate between regular gaming material and gaming material that include L/G/B/T topics.

And I also want thank Xplo Eristotle for giving my next article topic.
I am here for the long run and I promise to have more gaming material in future articles.

*cough* Thanks for the praise Stage, but Wooz isn't a she. :)
Wooz von Höhenstaufen is a he. Look forward to your next article. (Man, maybe I SHOULD get my hair cut. *good natured grumbling*)


Wooz is a he....hmmm..no matter cybers hugs to all

Wooz is a he....hmmm..no matter cyber hugs to all

Perhaps latter we can French braid your hair and eat ice cream ;)

I don't look very good in a French braid, so we'll skip that. When it's long enough I just pull it back into the ever-practical pony tail. However, I will go for some ice cream. I like chocolate and Rocky Road, too picky of an eater to get too adventurous with my food. Sugar cones only please. In case you feel like feeding me, I also like greasy bacon cheeseburgers with ketchup, chocolate/banana milk shakes, curry chicken and mostaccoli. Not at once though, please.


After typing and then thinking about how funny a German would look with a French braid... any who as far as your dietary needs go it you are attending the next ORGINS or GEN-CON I’ll see what I can do

Steve? That's Sam stageb.

I'd like to point out that SEXual orientation has everything to do with SEX. Celibacy (unless it is a vow of abstinence) is more a question of... consummer choices? performance? quantity? offer and demand?

OH and please send us picture if you braid Wooz's hair, that will be one for the scrap book.

And I do find the subject to be potentially interesting, just very undevelopped in this artcile (to my taste at least). And not because of the BEING DIFFERENT IS SO NEAT argument.

Just to be curious. Do you feel the need to clarify all your characters' sexual preferences and does it always play a big role in your portrayal of the character? If so, that is what I meant about the issue thing.

If all my characters were seperatists of some sort, my friends would get tired real fast of them, just as if I had to establish each time that they were hetero, or foreign, or of russian descent...

Wooz what is mostaccoli? (your eating habits are scarry!)

Mostaccoli is a wonderful Italian dish. It's pretty much a standard pasta with red sauce meal. Instead of spaghetti noodles, the pasta is tubular with angled cuts at either end and have ridges. There's another pasta noodle that is similar but smooth. The town I lived in for high school and college has a large Italian-American population, so Italian food is cheap and plentiful. (The way it should be!)

I don't know when I'll make it to a Gen Con or Origins again. With Gen Con leaving Milwaukee, I'll actually have to travel out of state. Not exactly the easiest thing to convince a non-gaming wife of. Back in Milwaukee I would have suggested the Calderone Club. It was only a block down from the convention centre on Kilbourne and they always had cute waitresses. Not much of a sell for you stage, but my girlfriends usually reacted postively to the bartenders there.

Just noticed something. Sam? Separatists? Are you one of the crazy Quebecois (spelling?) that don't want to be a happy Canadian maple leaf? :)


I liked the article. Because, though people who haven't played with GLBT people don't realize it, gay players change the game considerably, just because people react differently.

Have you ever seen two players whose characters are always picking a fight, even though nothing in the game provokes it? Much as we like to think that the entire game is in the characters, the people involved make a difference.

Take me, for instance. Last year I started playing D&D. Being a musician myself, I decided to play a bard (having had NO knowledge of the game beforehand). Now, despite the fact that my gnome hit on every female 5' or shorter, everyone figured that a gay player playing a bard would naturally have a gay character, and eventually I changed the sexuality of my character just because it made life easier on everyone...

Or, in the Mage: the Ascension game I ran concurrently, I gave a few homosexual NPC's (perhaps one in 4 or 5--yes, I admit to a high percentage). Of course, the gamers, a far more gay-friendly group than most, picked up very much on these, and had a difficult time accepting that any female werewolf was not a lesbian, simply because they knew that I was "accepting" of alternate lifestyles.

Now consider, all of you who think this is a worthless article: do you really think that there is no difference between having a gaymer and a straight gamer across from you? Do you think that ignoring the sexuality of the other gamers is even theoretically possible, much less desirable?

I think it's not desirable AT ALL! I am a gaymer and quite proud of it. I never hide the fact, and I DO react differently because of it. I WILL NOT accept any heterosexist idiot into my games. To everyone who says that there is no need for terms like "gaymer" and "gamerchick," I say that you are helping the central argument against gaming: that it encourages people to treat others as inferiors. I am saying that you are helping encourage gaming companies to create games that have a view of humanity that has, as the only women, busty bikini babes.

As my group learned that homosexuality and gaming went together nicely, the quality of the games skyrocketed, because the players learned a fundamental truth: that although all men are created equal, they are not all created the same. Treating everyone as the same is only another way of discriminating against the ones who are different.

To quote Gilly "GLEE"

Thanks for the comments Iridilate, I hope you like the next article as well

And as for Wooz von Höhenstaufen, a man who could not be more German if he tried :), since this topic had offered many different areas of conversation

I am going to add one more thread to this wild thread
ORGINS has a program for the non-gamers [or gaymers] in our life. They provide some tourist activities in the Columbus area. So while you're slinging dice you little woman can play the tourist

Wooz: Are you one of the crazy Quebecois (spelling?) that don't want to be a happy Canadian maple leaf?

Answer: Yup. I'm not anti-canada, I just don't think my people and the rest of canada are in a win-win situation as it is.

Re: Iridilate.
1- "gay players change the game considerably, just because people react differently."

Considerably? how? In what way are gay reactions all the same? Are you saying that unlike "straight" folks you all think the same? That is the same as saying men are too dumb to understand women.

2 -"Do you really think that there is no difference between having a gaymer and a straight gamer across from you?"

Unless someone has issues on sexual orientation and identity, it shouldn't. As in there are more individual differences based on other criteria (style of play, sense of humour, courage, attention span and whatever) that combined will have more effect than that perticular aspect of my friends psychological/spiritual makeup. Sure if one of the people around the table is heterophobic or homophobic...

3 "Do you think that ignoring the sexuality of the other gamers is even theoretically possible, much less desirable?"

I don't mean to ignore it. I just say that it doesn't take center stage. Unless I'm running a romance/swashbuckling game, in which case it would definitely be an important part of the game... hum nice idea.

It's not desirable to plau ostrich with any part of life. But, it doesn't mean that I want a constant reminder of every thing that is wrong in life. Otherwise I'd be playing MAGE the discrimination-violence-poverty-sickness-bigottry-oppression-segregation game.
It's a hobby, it needs to be light and gay (bad pun intended)

Oh and Iridilate, the folks who presured you to play a gay bard are just as dumb as those who would not allow you at their gaming table.

I'm not saying we should hide all of our difference. I just mean that if I came up to you and said:
"Hi my name is Sam, I'm a hetero gamer and a moderate french-separatist."
You'd probably perk an eyebrow and ask:
"Why should I care this dumb blond is straight?"

And 4 out of 5 is probably close to the official numbers (if you take into account all the false heteros (those that are actually gay or bi and got pressured into being straight)). And, wink, maybe since some of your characters are gay, they atract other gay people, just like player characters in white wolfe seem to be paranormal magnets (seems one person out of 5 is a werewolf, a mage or a kindred when you play WW).

Hm...I'll answer the questions, but I refuse to get into a long, useless discussion. Just forewarning.

1. Actually, I meant that people react differently TO gay players. Which is only to be expected, and is something I really don't have a problem with. Even my best friends treat me differently than straight people. And gay people do react differently, statistically--after all, the busty maiden is much less of an incentive for Steve, the Paladin who ALWAYS shines his armor (fine, flame me for being a flamer).

And, much as it reeks of stereotyping, I still stand by the fact that it is different playing with a straight person than a gay one. Adult situations--not necessarily at all sexual--come up frequently in WoD games, and the more variety there is at the table, the more maturely people react: this was rubbed in my face the day my one female player was unable to attend my game.

Certainly, I agree not to have sexuality play a horribly center stage role: in a dungeon crawl, it's almost irrelevant...but it's always a part of who a character is, and good roleplaying CAN sometimes bring it out, even in COMPLETELY nonsexual situations.


Eh, I agree the players who pressured my bard to be gay were dumb. But they no longer "force" me to play gay characters, so being open about it seems to help...

Finally, as to one of your last points: if someone wants to tell me they're straight, that's great by me. The fact that you're a gamer and seem pretty nice/intelligent might have me hitting on you unless you told me you were straight. ;) Regardless, if someone wants to tell me, I'll listen.

I hope this helped clarify my points. And I admit, I pushed the issue harder than it really needs to be pushed.

Please, please tell me your Paladin doesn't bless with "3 snaps in a Z formation". :)

Sam, please tell me that a large portion of Canadians agreed with the member of Chretien's administration who called Bush Jr. a moron.

I could try a lot harder to be even more German. Not really any point to it since I'm trying to get a job in the UK. I intend to die with one of those EU Purple Passports of Passion issued in my name. No more of having to worry about the CIA and NSA tracking my every move. *looks over shoulder*
Yeah, that's the ticket.

"To everyone who says that there is no need for terms like "gaymer" and "gamerchick," I say that you are helping the central argument against gaming: that it encourages people to treat others as inferiors."

Funny, I thought the central argument against gaming was that it was satanic. Or that it's only for smelly, pimply nerds who live in basements. Or something like that. Encouraging people to treat others as inferiors? Never heard that one.

"I am saying that you are helping encourage gaming companies to create games that have a view of humanity that has, as the only women, busty bikini babes."

Don't be absurd.

Wow. You are all morons.

A few points:

- No, this is perhaps not the best, nor the most directly gaming-related article, that Gamegrene has ever published.

- But why is that so important? I know for a fact that our editors work their ass off trying to give you the best website that they can. So not every article can ascend to the heights of your personal favorites. Deal.

- Regardless, I believe this article serves an important function of raising awareness and causing people to think and to question. I mean, look at how it got all of you talking. It grabbed your attention. It served its purpose in that way. So maybe the conclusion you draw from it is "I don't find sexual orientation to be an important defining factor in how I run games, so the article is not useful to me." That's still valid, and you might not have come to that conclusion without reading it. At least give stageb credit for doing that.

- stageb, a word of advice to you, from one Gamegrene writer to another: You're off to a good start, but don't let yourself become identified as nothing more than "that gay guy who games." Your experience and the way you identify yourself certainly colors everything you do as a gamer, but once people know you they'll keep that in mind and you will have done what you set out to do. That's why probably only 25-30% of what I write here anymore directly relates to gamerchick issues or feminism, and the rest is just about gaming...there's only so much you can say about any one issue before you start beating a dead horse. I don't know about you, but when I use the term "gamerchick" there's a reason I put "gamer" first and "chick" second. Yes, it is a part of me and how I approach my hobby, but it's not ALL of me and I make sure that people have that impression. Just a thought.

- My most firm belief about this article is that the discussion surrounding it has become unnecessarily rude and mean-spirited. So for God's sake, cut it out. Many of you (I won't name names) need to grow up and learn some basic human courtesy. You give gaming a bad name.

Wow. I've not seen a kickoff like this for some time.
*takes out popcorn and munches through the discussion before leaning his head up at Gamerchick's metaphorical shotgun smoking at the ceiling and grins*

Welcome aboard, stageb. A good article but if you do visit this again, tell me what the LGBT is looking for in a game session - is their orientation something they wish to promote in a game or does it really not matter how it is handled. Look forward to the next one.

Gamerchick's right though, I'd been banging on about the gaming industry and I got bored before sidelined. Caveat author. Now, let's be honest. If every article here was about gaming alone, things would be quite dry and dull - you may not agree but it would be too self-referential.

That's why we need a world - real or imagined - to feed off, to emulate or improve on. Occasionally we have to look outside the window to add something to our games, imagination helps but you won't get drawn in unless you can relate to it and for that you need validity.

It's why I've put racism and sexism in games and got flamed for it - the trick is to show these are wrong, even if in gaming terms their advocates are successful in the short term. In the end, conflict drives a game. Not everybody is Barney.

If you believe the articles you read need improvement - write one. Nothing could illustrate your point clearer and I'm sure the editors (and authors) won't mind. I'll tip my hat to Morbus and Sal for putting this one in. Let's admit it, it got you all talking and flaming aside, I think that's the point of these things.

Adios for now. I got an article to pen.

While I didn't think this was an especially beneficial article, I'm really not sure why people here get all up in arms because an article doesn't have anything for them. Nobody's making you read every little thing here.

I'm not really big on terms like 'Gaymer' and 'Dice Queen' myself. I'm not fond of labelling in general, they almost always end up getting associated with negative stereotypes and such. S'why I get peeved when people refer to me as an 'Otaku'. But if people want to call themselves that, well, more power to them.

True, this is quite a well-read article. Goes to show gamegreen readers are as alive as ever. I won't dwell on anything that has already been said here by Sam or Gamerchick, but I will add my little pebble:
While a lot of non-heterosexuals might feel comfortable and at ease at terms like the afforementioned gaymer and dice-queen, I think it's treading on thin ice for a gamer to use such terms. You really don't know who will be insulted and who won't. I've havent played with may LGBs, but on a similar note, I have played with a lot of blacks (please note, not african americans. Nigerians. In England) and while I lived and was very friendly with these people and a lot of them concidered me cool and one of the team, when I started calling them nigger (indeed, just like they called each other) they mostly were okay with it, but some were ill at ease. The message here is to avoid sensitive points because its better to be safe than sorry. Good luck with the next article man.

not sure if this was already said in the mass amount of text being thrown around here, so i apologize if i'm repeating. but it's an important point so maybe it's worth repeating: heterosexuals don't have to tell everyone they're heterosexual because it is *assumed* that everyone is heterosexual. hence, non-heterosexuals must at one point or another actually announce their sexuality as it differs from the assumption. sometimes this happens during a game. no biggie. that's my two cents, thanks and byebye. :)

Some reactions and answers:

Iridilate: don't make me blush ;)

Wooz: I won't get flamed as an anti-american again. So if you read many of my previous posts you'll know what I think of Junior and his lack of any quality as someone to lead such powerfull an entity as the USA.

NA: No, being different shouldn't force you to say you are. That just reinforces the idea that being different isn't normal. It will probably come up at one point or another. Although I must admit that if one of my friends had "hidden" this from me, I'd be hurt by the lack of trust in my readiness to accept my friend for what who he or she is.

Sure if Iridilate and I were gaming and I felt him coming on to me I might slip in the fact that I'm already taken, just like if Gamerchick came on to me. The fact that Iridilate is gay won't stop me from gaming with him (unless like some hetero girls he came on to me and was too thick to understand I wasn't interested).

Although I must admit that gay men catch on faster than straight women when it comes to that... ; )

Actually I'll probably run a variant of the gay paladin on my players. I'll have one of their powerfull and good ally be homophobic (the high clergy of Helm seems the right culprit somehow with their rampant intolerance to everything).

And Madizm22 you really hurt my feelings with that remark, take it back take it back! booohooohoooo.

Sam, I would never flame you for being Anti-American. For a couple of good reasons.

1. I've been studying foreign languages for the last 17 years so that I wouldn't be restricted to English speaking enclaves for the rest of my life.
2. I have always been looking for a nice way out of this place. I am sooo happy I managed to get my passport before Junior and any of his father's lackeys come up with ways to restrict normal citizens from getting one.
3. I just found out about some anti-American comic from Quebec called Red Ketchup. I wanted to ask how it was. French isn't a language I ever did well in.

I really hope you didn't think I was flaming you, ever. Needling and perhaps some good natured jabs, never flame.

Actually Red ketchup isn't anti-american. It's more an anti-Reagan comic than an anti-american one. I found it hilarious at firts, but one get's tired of it.

Wow' I'm surprised this comic crossed the atlantic...

I know you weren't flaming me, I just think some other readers would... All that being said, he is oh he ever so is. Some of my friends and I actually think he's a clone of his dad, and studies seem to show there is degradation of genetic material involved in cloning. Maybe JR is one of SR's black book projetcs from when he was head of the CIA… welcome to Illuminati/paranoïa/Conspiracy X.

PS I am not anti-american, but I am anti-republican (as far as foreign policies are concerned)

Ah yes, identity politics attempts to assert itself once again. Well, speaking as a brown-eyed, former-Goth, male Crest-toothpaste user (screwcap and tube, not cannister) who used to drive a German car made in Mexico... I have this to say:

Personally I've always been somewhat uncomfortable with nearly any level of detail on sexuality in games I play in or ref - at least those set in the high fantasy millieu.

As a game master, I don't like the feeling of facilitating someone else's self-indulgent or downright masturbatory sexual fantasies or speculation. I don't like playing the seducer or seducee to male or female players. It just never feels appropriate in the role. As a player, I think it's a little creepy to witness it. I'm talking about the players who come to the bar and immediately start talking of bedding wenches, when there is a game to be played.

As a point of identity for a character, it can be a cumbersome distraction if it forces the GM to accurately represent some kind of reaction from the environment around that character. It's a minefield. If the player makes a big point out of it, obviously there's something that player wants to say through that character. Characters only exist in the context of the setting, so is it fair to the GM to expect her to alter her setting to accomodate this point of identity? There is also the risk that with characters get reduced to shorthand stereotypes (which, having several gay friends - who DO talk "that way", and are aware of it) which may offend people at the table.

As far as gaming goes, virtually any of my characters could have been gay or straight. It just has never really entered the story or the game of heroic fantasy.

Personally, I found the article interesting. There IS depth, if you arent an idiot who cannot see past his own sexual insecurities. I found it useful, because I have never really included sexual orientation in my game, possibly becuase I dont find sex in games to be, well, important. BUT, it did open my eyes to many things.

Thus, I must say, to all of the buffoons who replied to this message: lighten up.

Stageb, I would love to hear more about what you have to say.

Sexuality is important in games, it's a major part of a characters identity. I mean heck, if a characters gay and a the GM is trying to utilise a different sex NPC to manipulate them they are going to react really differently right? And if you are playing with a PLAYER who is GLBT or whatever, and you suddenly bring seduction of any sort into the game (a staple of fantasy as s genre) then you might make a stupid assumption either way (that A) their character is straight, or B) their character is gay.)

People DO make assumptions about these things, so it's better to know in case it might come into play.

I think to some it may be important to point ths out, for others they already know, and for others still it's not about stats so for some reason it's got nothing to do with gaming.

Here's the acid test: The article caused discussion, thus was suitable for Gamegrene in my opinion.

Hmmm [trying to sound very Marge-like]

Being gay or lesbian is not about sex but rather whom the person chooses to love. It is no more about sex than being heterosexual being about sex.

I can assure that there are days where sex does not happen this may or may not be true for the hets in the crowd...but I can not comment to that aspect

But I agree with Paladin that a general lightening in needed

I am still shocked how much response this has generated, but discussion has happen and that does make me happy

As far a being gay or being straight for the purpose of the game would be who is seducing, or trying to seduce, whom and their chances of success.

I guess this topic is quite a hot button


"Being gay or lesbian is not about sex but rather whom the person chooses to love. It is no more about sex than being heterosexual being about sex."

Stageb, I don't think that statement is really quite fair to gay people, nor is it fair or accurate even for heterosexuals.

For many men, especially urban gay men in their late teens or early youth, "coming out" is heightened by a period of intense promiscuity, exceeding that of even hetero youth. If you are suggesting that all the people who are gay actually happen to love their partners, I think you'd better come visit Toronto or New York, and take a look around a glory hole washroom, or at a gay nightclub. You're missing quite a party - but it ain't always love, not even most of the time.

For many gay men (or more often, gay women), their sexual preferences are intensely tied to their politics, and to their whole identity as a person (whereas I don't particularly feel heterosexual, until I enter a gay nightclub, where I suddenly become "aware" of my difference). It is easy to see this political culture and dismiss the sexual element, but it is a pre-requisite.

Again though, I question why people are choosing, of all things, sexuality in their role-playing games. Don't you people feel a little goofy sitting with your friends, making your GM titillate you with seductions? Doesn't it deserve a Kirkian "get-out-of-your-mother's-basement" motivation?

Snickering while I type...

Thank you for the Kirkian quote Neph, that is exactly what bugs me with rpg seduction, especially with LARP which sometimes turns into Live Action Rut Party.

RPG's (for me) are about doing the stuff I want to do but can't in real life because heck I'm no superhero. Getting romantically involved is something I prefer doing in real life. My characters sometimes have families and spouses, sometimes they don't, sometimes it's not relevent to the character concept so I don't dwell too much on it.
For my latest D&D character, it is important, his wife and daughter are what drives him on the quest, the building of a world where they can live in acceptance is what drives him.
Still this part of my character's persona doesn't become a DM's time syphon. At most 10 minutes are spent actually dwelling on that. I'll buy toys for my daughter, or a piece of music for the wife (I'll often just erase a few GP's on my sheet and not even bother telling the GM what I bought since it has no impact on the game proper).
But when faced with drow hating npc, then it adds to the story. I know my adventuring buddies were surprised to find out I married a drow and had a daughter with her, especially since they are my favoured enemy.
I guess it's the same thing with sexuality (and sex orientation) in a game. The succubus trick is really screwed if the paladin is gay, or is it? I mean a gay paladin falling prey to a succubus is really not being true to himself now is he… It all depends on what your game is all about.

Enjoy your games folks

Sam wrote: "No, being different shouldn't force you to say you are. That just reinforces the idea that being different isn't normal."

Sam: i didn't mean to imply that anyone is being "forced" to do anything; perhaps it will clarify if i ask you to imagine a situation where an assumption is made about one's sexuality (this assumption most often being that one is heterosexual) and where this assumption is somehow expressed. it can be as simple as an out-of-character comment like "Oh, don't you have a boyfriend?" to which a gay female player could choose to respond to with the truth ("No, I have a girlfriend") or she can choose to lie, say, to avoid bringing sexuality and politics into an RPG, which is what i understand many commentors here ask.

to those with this sentiment: i feel that this is a grossly unfair request. am i perhaps misreading?

No I am not saying anyone should avoid/conceal/ hide/obfuscate their sexual orientation.
And I do know that the "default setting" is: people are straight.

Still, it doesn't mean that people outside the norm should feel they have to come out with whatever difference they have. By norm I mean: what the average person is.

I mean being gay is a part of who you are right? and RPG are a way of exploring and socialising with others right? So sure you get to talk, share, gossip and what not.
I don't think anyone here is saying you should lie about your sexuality, least of all around a gaming table where you are supposed to be among friends.

And as for the embarassing moment caused by the "don't you have a boyfriend/girlfriend?" question, I'm soooo tired of feeling goofy for it that I avoid taking sexual orientation for granted. Just say "bring your special someone to the party".

And as far as assumptions are made, being a white heterosexual male, a gazillion assumptions are made daily about what I like, think and believe. Somehow many people think we are all alike and come from the fourth planet of this solar system... some pop psycho-sociologist is to blame for that I've heard.

All that being said, I guess it's all a question of what one feels comfortable with around the table. Although I tend to think that too much romanticism in a non-romance genre tends to add nothing to the game, I.M.O.H.O.

See ya folks.

PS less than 13 hours to go till Two Towers, Yipee!


Alrighty, well, certainly this *issue* is worth addressing, because look at all the folks who felt the need to address it.

On the other hand, though, this *article* says little more than "I'm gay, I'm a gamer, and I'm going to be writing about being a gay gamer in the near future."

Really, there are plenty of ways to include sexuality as a factor in your game without the need to do so overtly. Maybe the rakish swashbuckler falls flat when he tries to seduce some fair maiden (who happened to have a +20 on her resistace roll because she's a lesbian), while the swashbuckler's lady friend was able to strike up a friendly conversation and get the needed information.

No overt mention of sexual orientation, but darned if it wasn't an important factor in that scenario.

And that's the kind of thing I hope to see from this columnist in the future: examples of how sexual orientation can be a *factor* without needing to be a *focus*.



Re: above post.



Steve, this was a good start to what could become more in depth. I cannot say it's pointless. I can't say it was terribly useful or enlightening. It is a good start and I for one am very interested to see if you can take it far enough to make this really worth a good deal of reading....I don't think I've seen your stuff anywhere else around here though.....well, whatever. God bless you and have a nice day! (not all Christians think the worst of you, so there)

Ab solutely not politically correctively yours,

Sam's succubus comment got me thinking about something I recently pondered why paging idly through the D&D Monster Manual: There's quite a number of "monsters"/creatures who use sex or charisma as bait (the succubus) or where it's important part of their inane nature and powers (the nymph, the sirene). That got me thinking, if i.e. a "female" monsters with the power to lure men to their death or drive them insane with desire to control them happens upon a gay male, or lesbian female, what happens? Usually this topic doesnt come up, but when it does, it could divert an encounter with a monster into a totally different path. The gay male might even be able to save the day (and face a few curious questions afterwards from his IC buddies, in case he never came out of the closet or never thought of himself as gay). Of course, the GM has to approve and know of this beforehand, or it could become an easy way of "cheating". ;-)

Some posters here said that they're uncomfortable using sexual situations inside a game. And while I agree that usually sex isn't high on the top-priority list of character issues, at least not in Fantasy RPG, I feel we cannot totally drop sex, IC love affairs, gender and even sexual orientation from a game.

First of all, even though descriptions of RPG worlds or cultures rarely talk about gender politics, homophobia or similar, it can be quite important. If you're running a game in a world where all women (or all men) are treated as inferior or as slaves (see i.e. a culture I forgot the name of in Wheel of Time), or an Inquisition runs rampant, you suddenly got an issue. There's even an SF novel (again I forgot the title, it was many years ago) set on an Earth where due to over population same-sex relationships were the only legal thing, and heterosex was considered yukky and perverse (people got children by artificial insemination or in-vitro). So the GM has to ponder in advance what specifications his setting has.

Look at movies: Conan might not make passes at all females he meets, but he certainly talks about bedding bar wenches from time to time.


That's one of the coolest posts I've ever seen.

Well, well...I wish that I found this site sooner...

I thought this article covered a good topic. But the viewpoint of the writer seemed to be a litttle too...aggressive. Perhaps a more passive state of mind wouldn't have made some of the readers react the way they did. I know stereotypes are generally hard to discuss, and when a person is "LGBT" their past experiences with the "TNMP" (aka typical narrow-minded prick) can make them more aggressive when discussing said topic.


Ass said:
"When a person is "LGBT" their past experiences with the "TNMP" (aka typical narrow-minded prick) can make them more aggressive when discussing said topic."

True true. I had not seen this article before just now and I have to say that even in gaming as in all things there is allways an issue of prople not liking you ar persecuting you for stupid things like politiacl views, gender or sexual orientation.

I remeber a DM once who was a total prick to me after he found out I was bi. I just didn't play his game anymore and neither did any of the open minded people who hung out at B.U.B.s. Pretty soon he didn't have any players and he stopped hanging out there.

There is only an issue if the folks you hang out with are uncomfotable with an aspect of your personality. If there are people who are homophobic than they won't get along with folks that are gay, in a game or any social situation. Just like if someone's sexist they won't respond well to a female gamer.

If someone has a certain opinion but is polite enough to agree to disagree then it can work out well and everyone can have a good time.

My point is it's only an issue if people decide to make it one.

"Dice Queen" I like that. I know lot's of Dice Queen. I'd like to add to that a "Dice Dyke". I know alot of those too. My girlfriend (a self proclaimed diesel dyke) will get a kick out of that.

On a similar and much lighter note, I had a player (a Dice Queen if there ever was one) once play a character in Shadowrun, a Troll Samurai, who had written under description on his character sheet: "Queerer Than A # Dollar Bill." And he was.

That "Gon M." dildo is probably the EXACT type of person I'm talking about...

Can't even COMMENT on the thread, he/she/it just HAS to put something down in an attempt to get under your skin.


Hello People,

Interesting article. Its an aspect of gameplaying so of course its on topic.

My view on 'sex in the RPG' is that most people spend lots of time thinking about sex. So the idea that sexual comments or sexual actions by characters will not occur, is ..well... fantasy.

If a player is gay, cross-dressing, or whatever, his/her preferences will naturally tend to color his sexual comments, jokes, innuendo etc. With a group of mature and liberal players this is not an issue.

I would, however, inject a few notes of caution:

(1) Where minors are involved in a game, I would like to see sexual content kept out of the game or to a minimum. This is not because kids are sexually ignorant, but because of the danger of sexually predatory behaviour by older players.

(2) Its important not to offend other players. You need to use commonsense and know the limits of the group. In particular, if a player character is making a sexual advance to another player character. Plenty of players would find this upsetting from someone of their own sexual orientation; it is even more difficult to accept coming from someone of a different orientation.

(3) As a DM, I don't like to see real-life relationships carried on into the game. For gods sake lets keep it a game, and not carry sexual politics into the game. Its pretty revolting to watch two people mooning over each other, especially if you're not involved and just want to get on with the game.


Sexuality in gaming should be kept to a minimum, or at least be as light-hearted as possible. Too much or the wrong kind of sexual activity can actually rip the engine out of the "game-train"

I played in a game once where one male-PC raped another female-PC. Well, after that, it instilled a rather permanent uncomfortable mood in the game. The game didn't last much longer. Even though the female-PC ripped the raper's testicles shortly after the fact, the game never recovered.

What makes it worse, the GM actually talked the male-PC into doing it in the first place...

I might not have my licence and have no right to put a diagnostic on that GM captain (or should I say Mystic) but that guy (I assume a guy) had real twisted fantasies, a shame he used his players to play peeping tom. Better that than doing it in real life, but it still shows a troubled psyche.

Heck even when we played a campaign of evil humanoïds where the raiders had harems, we never actually roleplayed what went on in said harems.

Your GM, if you still see him, should try to work out his issues.

I guess the female player no longer plays with your group, if she still games at all.

I don't think I would game with that group anymore either. At least not with that GM. There is enough ugliness in the real world, I don't need it in my hobbies too.

My thoughts exactly.

Though ugliness has its place in gaming, I don't think players should inflinct it on one another. I think it makes these horrors seem trivial.

Having a character be the victim of a rape can make for a great dramatic story and character development.

Having to deal with the grief, the shame, the remorse (as puzzling at it seems there is that), the anger, etc.

My girlfriend's first character had been raped by orc pirates (as part of her background), she was really motivated to put a stop to them (both to protect others and to avenge herself). It was nice to see her play at being ackward around the half-orc character who was the child of a raped human woman (angry at him for no good reason while feeling connected to him somehow).

That would be as far as I would go into incorporating rape into a game. I would mention where, how and when it happened, what physical or social consequences
there were. But I would skip any graphic detail.

If it happened during the campaign, say a character gets captured by evil enemies. I would say that during her/his stay as a prisonner the character was raped by his/her captors.

Just as I wouldn't get into all the gory details of a torture session, if a character got tortured (or if the players tortured a prisoner).

If any twit out there thinks still thinks rape is a trivial affaire (for the victim or their close ones) watch Vicent Cassel and Monica Bellucci's movie, I can't remember the title though.
Most of my friends didn't event make it to the rape scene, I can't even bring myself to rent it as the scenes I have seen were so violent and sick that I felt I should spare myself the "discomfort" of seeing the whole thing.

Assassin, you should have that ex-GM of yours watch that movie, it should change his views on the triviality of rape. If not, he's just too sick, cut all bridges and stay away from him.


To add an unusual twist to the scenario, the player who's PC was raped is a GUY. But nevertheless, it still kinda ruined the game...

My point still stands, gender doesn't change how wrong this situation was.

I remember the initial response...

"Dude...no...that's just wrong."

Raper: "But he said NO ONE would find out."

Well there you go

Ok 1st of all
a. I just found this site and thereby this is also my 1st post.
b. I suppose I should point out that I am a Gaymer.

Now on to the subject at hand.
sexuality can come up quite often in a game even when the players are not sophmoric twits like some of the people posting on this site seem to be. the point about the succubis encounter is a valid point. look in the mm and you will find mention of the succubis & maybe i aint sure the incubis. These where midevil demons designed by the church to scare children into not having wet dreams. (as if that where even possible) Now that takes a sick twisted mind to do that. Now I have had the classic succubis encounter and guess what ... It failed ... Good thing the Dm was sloshed or else there might have been questions. Though I will point out that as a dm it was a reather poor try. Now if you can find a single monster or even a reference to homosexuality in any of the published material until about 98. not there really i would have thought that a game that came about in the 70's would have at least touched on the matter. due to social reasons the lgbt community has been left out of the gaming circle for way to long. as a dm I have used many a method to encite my players to think and to take action to some injustace, Including having a group of orcs rape and murder one of my players wife and family. To top this I had said orcs behead and keep said heads for later use. I did eventually give the heads back by having the orcs throw them at the player during a battle. the point is I let my players know that I would use such tactics ahead of time so that when i did there was no real shock value to the players. If as a rule you let your players in on some of your plans way ahead of time you will be supprised as to what they will accept. now back to the subject , to all you hetro's out there. If you will just use Yahoo and search for anything to do with sexuality and gaming you will find absolutely nothing about homosexuality there. except for something added to the netbook of unlawful carnal knowledge (tm). the point is you expect us to just come up with rules to make your life easier when you have had 30 years to do so. what are we supposed to do reright the entire rules to add it in. sure sounds good don't it. because we all know what you have done. well anyway enough vitriol from me i will point out that even if the artical had no game material in it it caused enough discussion of the subject to fill a whole netbook with ideas for this very situation. so to those who thought there was no real worth to the artical shame on you for not giving it some yourself. for my game material i will give you this to use in a few of your games if you dare. Catullus ( the god of Homosexuals ) use how you please. this is just a small way youcan add the theme without being to overt with it.oh and before you hetro's scream you already have venis, aphrodity,isus, and eros so don't argue over one little addition to the panthion. for all you history and mytholigy buffs yes i know that venis and apfrodite are the same goddess. oh well good artical /_\

Somewhere way back up in this thread, someone posted that open homosexuality had no place in a fantasy RPG because until the end of the 20th century, homosexuality was always met with violent hostility.

Fact is, though, modern society doesn't have a monopoly on mutating sexual tolerances and values. The single historical constant in the human attitude about sex is that we're obsessed with it, and the harder we try to deny that obsession the more it dominates our lives. Our cultural attitudes on the subject have otherwise flowed like water across both time and geography. There was even an era in ancient Greece when homosexual pedophelia was all the rage, and heterosexual relationships considered a necessary burden.

"Things change. People change. Hairstyles change. Interest rates fluctuate." Sexual attitudes in a fantasy world are what we say they are. There can be no wrong answers.

Personally, I'm a straight-up, orthodox, "viva la diference" kind of guy, and the thought of male homo- and/or bisexuality honestly gives me a bit of the creeps --but then so do TV sitcoms. Arguing that homosexuality has no place in a pre-industrial world is as nonsensical as claiming that people weren't yukking it up over the anguish and embaressment of others long before the invention of the television network.