T/WOTC: Cash is my Middle Name?


I hate TSR/WOTC. To enforce my points, allow me to spearhead my (low-fat) negativeness into two fronts, two of the major sources of the much-overvalued green paper with dead presidents that corporations can't seem to get enough of: Magic: the Gathering, and Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition.

What's that I hear you say? Yeppers, people, I'm new here. No, you haven't seen my (slightly oversized, yet comfortably designed for chair-use) Greek tush in Gamegrene before. I am the Newbie. The Nerd. The Scrub. All of the above, and any combination hereof. As Plato said, youths are full of easily-quenched passion and fire, so here's a fiery sample of mine right now:

I hate TSR/WOTC.

Not too uncommon an emotion these days, I must admit, I'm not exactly the needle in the hay stack. To enforce my points, allow me to spearhead my (low-fat) negativeness into two fronts, two of the major sources of the much-overvalued green paper with dead presidents that corporations can't seem to get enough of: Magic: the Gathering, and Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition.

I never thought of myself as a good Magic player. I was quite proficient at a number of strategies in my time, I had tried out most old and new combos, techniques, styles and piles of cards. From the less-than-known D5C to Stupid Green, Counter-Post, Oath of Druids and Necro. I've tried most of the best, and it was good. It was fun, and it was expensive.

Before I go on, let me set a ti meline: I started playing around '97 and went full-on at the start of '98. I held myself pretty much up to date until 2001, when I got sick of it. WOTC wanting my money is one thing; getting charged horrific sums of my (ever thinner) lunch money is acceptable. I will stand for it. Besides, I don't smoke, and I didn't drink or go out back then (oh bitter folly of youth!), so I could afford to waste some money on a nice hobby (and even win some back if the tournament-God felt like winking in my general direction).

But alas, all good things come to an end. Please observe a brief history, gentle reader: The 6th Edition was a bad one. No new art, no good cards, and a definite outlook from the head of research and development: "We wanted to power down the game, fewer power-cards and overbalancing abilities. Green got a good deal of reprinted good cards, red, blue and white got so-so and black got powered-down" Now let me fill the non temporally-conscious amongst you in: up to now, black had a little of everything. A little bit of creatures, a little bit of control, a little bit of discard, a little bit of removal. And it had the only reanimation (barring a few pitiful exceptions). But no! In 6th Edition, black had next to nothing. WOTC's attitude was away from the pic-n-mix style black had. Granted. I hated black anyway. Fine. Black was to be a discard-based color from now on. Thank God.

But WOTC made a booboo. In the next edition, guess which color was the most favored by the coast-living wizards of gaming? Black. Black got the best creatures in the history of mankind, the most forceful beasts alive and quite a hefty heap of non-discard related cards! What was this turn of events? Well, to me it said one thing and one thing alone: internal strife. The various wizards over there on that coast were all following an agenda of their own, because the company got too big and unwieldy for the big wizard to handle. The cherry on the pie came with Nemesis. The first sub-edition (ie. small sized) to introduce a new ability (fading) in the middle of the year. Wonderful. So now we have new abilities two, maybe three times a year, about 700 cards per annum to keep up with, a hefty price tag for any card that can do anything at all, and inconsistency with the editions. Wonderful.

But as though to add insult to injury, WOTC goes and buys TSR. Rejoice. To be frank with you, AD&D 2nd Edition needed some serious work on it. It reminded one of Jabba the Hutt. Huge, powerful, but too vast to know it all. The only thing I prayed for, back then, was for WOTC to realize that making a M:TG environment for D&D 3rd Edition, no matter how good an idea it might seem, would not go down well if the existing backgrounds (mainly Grayhawk, Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft and Planescape) weren't improved and given a much-needed facelift first.

Two years into 3rd Edition, and I must report I am quite impressed. It's a lot better than my pessimistic "thine end is nigh" attitude allowed me to see at first. It's extremely well-balanced and quite good. Sufficiently complex to cater for most rules-judges, yet simple enough to be easily mastered for the new players, and in my eyes, this can only be a good thing, because D&D is universally the most famous RPG ever (in any multiverse, including the weird one where rain is in the shape of doughnuts), and the one a new player is more likely to come into contact with first.

A few squillion characters into my DMing career, I realized one thing suddenly: D&D is perfectly made to crush the new-player's nightmare (huzzah!): The power-gamer, aka, munchkin. D&D is engineered so divinely mathematically, that not even a +1 goes by unaccounted for, not a single ability is more powerful than it's peer, there is no way, on God's (not so) Green Earth you can overpower a D&D character legally. And don't listen to players who have discovered massive amazing ultra-wow combos that need half a dozen feats and super-stats, because if instead of the amazing combo of nine feats, seven skills, weird weapons and magical artifacts that transform them into the ultimate kobold-mowing machine at the humble level of 16, they had developed like every other player, they would actually have a character who can do more than mow the kobold-infested lawn that seems to decorate most dungeons. Typical examples involve talking and other weird things good role-players do.

Don't get me wrong, D&D is an oxen-cart load better than the older AD&D, but it does get a little monotonous after a while. I mean, how many hamlets of level-0 poor wheat-farmers can there realistically be that just happen to have an evil necromancer in a castle next-door making zombies and skeletons out of their deceased relatives? How many drow can attack unsuspecting caravans at night, and how many evil liches can have scores of gold and treasure lying about in their trap-riddled dungeon while they wait like the knight from Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail for some bunch of adventurers to whip them to eternal damnation and pilfer their riches? Come on!

The world can't be so full of evil stuff! Check out our humble planet's demographics: for every hawk, there's a few dozen mice. For every lion, there's half a dozen gazelles, zebras and other herbivores. If there are so many predators in Faerun, Toril or whatever universe you play'n'slay in, shouldn't there be absolute gajillions of mundane, simple, non-aggressive herbivores around? Creatures that just get eaten? How often have you, in a D&D game, run across a pasture full of impala, or cows or anything that doesn't rip you to shreds for sheer malicious purposes?

Maybe it's time to look towards another company for RPGs. TSR/WOTC is good and nice for one's introduction into RPGs in the first few months, but after that, go hunting for some better games, if you know what I mean. And as far as CCG/TCGs are concerned? Your money is better spent somewhere else, as far as this author is concerned.

I have to say your rant sounds more like sour grapes after getting ripped off for your Magic cards. Not to say that you don't have a right to vent about that every now and then. I myself was stuck in that trap, but I was lucky to have started playing back in the beginning (or close enough) that when I bailed in 4th edition I was able to get some good prices on my cards.

WOTC is a business as we have stated multiple times, in different areas on this site. WOTC raison d'etre is to make money and make sure all of us have a little less lunch money from time to time. (Being forced to eat a little less is something that a lot of us could do with a bit more often, me included.) If they don't make money, Hasbro cuts them loose and we may have to live in a world without D&D. Hate them for their cards. Support them for the RPGs you love (or at least kinda like).

They PAID you for this?

Ok, behold a little rant of myself please.

Bongo, with all respect, but this was the worst article on GG if you ask me. Allow me to solidly debunk your arguments, please.

First of all, WotC didn't just "go and buy TSR". That company was dead. It's very poor marketing strategies and poor price/quality ratio in the end made sure of that. They saved the game, but you seem to hold it against them. For what, because you are somehow 'forced' to pay money for those books and cards? You chose to play the game and so you had to be perfectly well aware that as a corporation, they are in the business for the money. They all are. So don't give us that oh-so-sad-lunch-money thing.

Next you said you hoped that they would not make a M:tG environment for D&D. Of course they do not do that, but that statement shows your lack of insight into a corporation's working. Just like the crowd that yelled 3e would be bad, because it was made by the same guys who made pokemon.

No, it wasn't.

The company has many seperate branches, and it's not as if the one responsible for M:tG or Pokemon also made the new D&D edition. They had a different group for that. Apples and oranges.

How many hamlets of 0-level commoners can there be, you ask. Have you even read the new edition? Commoners do have levels. Commoners are not as weak compared to the PCs as they used to be.

How many drow attack at night? Depends on your DM. But it's the last comment in there that makes my blood boil. The lich just hangs around forever, untill somebody walks by to kill him?! You, sir, must have played under the worst DM ever. Liches don't do that, they are powerplayers in the local economy and politics, although many people just do not realize it. Do you honestly think that D&D somehow suggests that critters just exist for the players to slaughter? I pity you...

The world can certainly be full of evil stuff. First of all, it's fantasy. So your real-world analogy falls flat straight away. Second of all, predators do not have to be evil, and vice versa. Drow do not eat other sentients (except a few truly sadistic maybe), yet they are evil.

Oh, whatever universe I "play'n'slay" in? Who says I slay? I have a fourth level wizard in a 3e Birthright game who is the courtmage of a minor country, and I have never even *attacked* anybody, let alone killed. So spare me your awful prejudice about how our games should be. And yes, I have seen plenty of benign encounters. You know why? Because I play under a good DM.

So, my money is better spent elsewhere? A good article would've provided some proof that the other companies are actually better. You have said that WotC is bad, but you lack any shred of evidence that the others aren't.

How about White Wolf? They actually forgot to include the rules about regaining Pathos in Wraith:the Oblivion! Have we seen WotC forgetting to include the rules how to prepare spells? No, I don't think we have. I can go on for a while, but you get the idea.

Thanks for holding out so long, and let's hope Bongo smartens up.


You know why I tell the players about the cow herds in my game?

To describe the scenery and set the mood.

Ex: "As you reach the top of the hill, you see a landscape doted with farms, fields and pastures. Over the horizon you can see the walls of Blahburg. At the gate you can see that a caravan is being searched by a couple of guards."

And that's it.

How much game time does anyone spend on the fact that the characters are bathing, going to the crapper or grooming their animal companions?

Oh and just so you know Bongo, magic makes no sense, neither do flying creatures as big as whales. But for argument's sake, predators eat other predators as well. Many D&D creatures occupy the same niche as some plants in our world (those that are sustained by magic, minerals or whatever). Also, many creatures (like undead, constructs, demons and the most supernatural creatures) don't require food per say.

Judging from your post you've played D&D like one plays Diablo (and that can be fun, but only for a while). I'll say it again and again, the main ingredients to a game that remains entertaining are: players and the DM. You have to decide what will be the game's style.

The "Kick in the door" style of gaming is entertaining, but if the game only revolves around this, you'll get bored real fast I tell you. The same can be said about: "Blue Planet", "Vampire", "Gurps", "Deadlands", "Warhammer" or "Shadowrun".

And as far as magic goes, the way to keep it fun is to stop
buying cards and use only those you and your friends have.

It's your game.

Cthulhu Matata

I love the way everybody is running to correct me. No really. Even negative comments are constructive. To set somethings straight, I'm not as negative and evil as I seem to be in the article. Quite frankly, I didnt want this rave to be my first article up, because it will give a bad first impression, but there you have it.

Mr. Belphanior, I'm very happy to learn of your benign 3rd ed. wizard, but tell me: Appart from burning hands, color spray, ray of frost, magic missile, charm person, shocking grasp, daze, protection from etc., shield and armor spells, do you find many constructive things to cast that are non combat-related? Or have you not noticed that about 2 in 3 feats are directly related to combat? I can't see many taking skill specialisation: diplomacy... With respect to whether I have ever read the 3rd ed books, yes I have, and in great depth, but do you have any idea how long it takes the average newbie to roll-up a village with 10-12 important commoners in? Try playing GURPS: GMing is about as dificult as playing, which is not much atall.

Sam, I have played D&D both like diablo and like a litterary adventure. You're right, it is bland as hack-n-slash, but what I'm trying to pinpoint is not my own experiences as a player now, but what I saw when I first started-out. I found it too easy as a newbie (both DM and player) to get into hack-mode with the D&D mechanics. When I switched to GURPS, me and my group didnt even try to go all dice-rolling-no-role-playing. That's got to tell you something.

Wooz, you're very right, WOTC/TSR is a business, and I do consciously purchase their products, but when a many-times returning customer finds that for the same price he's getting less quality, he has the right to be sour about it. Especially with an investement of that size.

Everybody, thanks for the comments, and in case you're wondering, I'm not actualy a half-dragon vampire lvl10 paladin with 10 levels in blackguard and a rod of rulership smeared with purple-worm poison. (and yes, there is a half-dragon vampire. I read it in Dragon, and she's one of Lolth's minions). I merely wanted to point out a rather sour (as Wooz put it) facet of what I see as TSR/WOTC. You'll all be pleased to know that my next two articles have nothing to do whatsoever with rants about anyone. Next one is concerned philosophically on what makes a game attarctive.

Also, incase you're wondering, I'm really proud so many wrote in to complain so fast, because it means I managed to excite you lot with my article. I'm really quite impressed I managed to bring out so strong emotions (even if they were both negative and directed towards me) in my readers. It's a good start. You could have just read till the middle and left, but no, you kept going and commented quite extensively, and that, I believe, is what gamegreen is about: Getting your oppinion out there, and hearing everybody elses view on it.


-the infamous Bongo.

Well, my own rant was perhaps a little too heated. Glad you took it so well though.

Actually, that wizard is a diviner, and I have plenty of spells. Detect Thoughts, Alarm, Message, Change Self, See Invisibility... They are all quite useful in the courtroom.
But my most favorite spell is Mount. I once did get too close to a battlefield, and a knight charged me. So I readied and summoned a horse *directly* in front of him, causing him to crash into the poor animal. I'm not sure it counts as a real attack, but it was the most hostile thing he ever did.

The feats I have are Extend Spell, Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative and Skill Focus: sense motive. I know that most feats focus on combat, but that's what they are: special techniques of some sort. Apart from metamagic and item creation, what special techniques could you want? Farmtool Focus? Improved Weaning?

I do not deny D&D having very combat oriented rules, but I'm not sure how it could have been done otherwise. First of all, combat is a very important facet of the typical swords-and-sorcery world. And roleplaying, well, how many rules do you need? There's a number of CHA-based skills, but that's all there's to it, isn't it?

I have tried GURPS once, but it just wasn't my thing. I can heartily recommend Alternity though.

If you want a game with some REALLY useful spells, especially at starting level, pick up a copy of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. No Magic Missiles, or anything like that. No, my starting level apprentice (which because of the random career choices, there is only a one in 50 chance of rolling) got the almighty Protection from Rain and Produce small Animal.

yep, my Character was going to stay both dry and fed, which would have made him a very valuable member of the party (had the DM not disappeared halfway across the country before the game got started.).

D&D isn't really even High Fantasy, it's one step further, PULP fantasy. As such WOTC do a good job of supporting it.

Are they owned by an evil money grubbing corporation, yes. (Hasbro, evil not because of what WOTC do, but because of their employment of mass cheap labour in third world countries) Are they a huge evil money grubbing corporation in themselves? no more than any other gaming company who has a lot of customers to satisfy.

They fill their market nicely, their products are neither the best, but they are also not too specialised, everyone has usually bumped into D&D so even if you don't know all the details you'll probably be able to jump in on a game and get the gist, even if you have never played with the people before. Same goes for magic.

But yeah, if you want good games there are other places to go, Decipher for Card Games (Lord of the Rings CCG is absolutely brilliant, and actually out sold magic in January, only the second time in history that has happened for a CCG) and White Wolf, Hogshead or innumerable smaller publishers for RPGs.

I don't understand. You "hate" D&D 3E because it is a solid, well balanced system or because your GM can't come up with a non-stereotypical hack and slash adventure? Sounds like a personal problem.

Dear Bongo,
I totaly agree with you man!
This whole TSR/WOTC is a plektaine! They are trying to take over the world! Illuminati!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! RICHARD!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAH! 'scuze me.
I think this guy has something ta say, an maybe we oughta lissen, y'know?
I happen to be a victim of such a situation myself!
As far as magic, it has gone rotten. Period. Last serious expansion was Urza block.
As far as D+D, it reminds me of that movie"LAST ACTION HERO", where the heroe realises, at a point of the film, that ya just can't blow a car up with a single gun shot, and that it hurts ta smash a window with yer bare fist.
damatz. Play GURPS.

Pan, were you trying to make fun of Bongo in a satirical manner? If not, you might be suffering from some sort of brain damage, because that post made absolutely *no* sense whatsoever. Spelling aside, the message it tried to convey was just ludicrous.

I'm not the greatest Bongo-fan around here, but there's nothing wrong with writing normally...

Dear Caliban,
Amen, brother. Thankyou for being the first to agree with me.

Mr. Pan,
I love you. And if anybody doesn't understand what a plectaine is, (and this is especially true for you, mr. belph) they need their head checked by illuminati. Fnord. Long live the Rorchachs amongst us... Death to the Ozymandias look-alikes.

Jubilex, if you think D&D is solid, I'd hate to see what you mean by a not solid game. Like, for example, one without damage reduction for armour, with all the weapons being equally fast in their attack, where every spell takes 6 seconds (one round for the dumb ones.) to execute (and please don't write in to tell me about wuicken spell. Have you seen many people waste their 7th slot for a quickened lightning bolt? I didnt think so.). What if, we made the system so that according to the nooks and crannies of the mechanics, the most powerful weapon in existence, is a +1 keen vorpal clawed gauntlet? (with a threat range of, I believe, 13-20. 9-20 if you take improved critical.)...

I wonder...

PS. Belphanor, I love you man. You've written more in comments than I've written in article. And for free. Thanks. ;)

Dearest Belphanior,
No I was not making fun of Bongo. I happen to agree with him. I see it is beyond you scholars to comprehend a text with a few spelling errors... Anyway, I am totally with him. The quality of the games are just not what they used to. Especially Magic.

Hmmm. And I thought *my* rants were long.

MtG has been riding a peak for some time now, it was inevitable that sometime, the quality would drop. No big surprise. I'm glad I got into it about 3rd ed - Ice Age and shortly after seeing that the money I was spending would never be worth it anywhere I went back to RPGs who brought out new editions every 2 - 3 years...

Behold, more irony.

Hey Bongo, if you want some real pinatas worthy of your bat let me cue some up for you? Chaosium for Call of Cthulhu 7th ed and counting... White Wolf for waiting a whole ooh 5 years between new editions - no wait, make that 3 years, no wait... a new rules system per sourcebook *rolls eyes skyward* Games Workshop for calling their board/wargames 'role-playing'. How? Where?

Every big gaming house for having a d20 imprint and dragging their system into d20 compatibility even though the systems they had were just as valid... Every gaming publisher for whining on about how hard it is to produce material and make money out of it when in fact it is your business to do so. Your choice, remember?

You want better quality games? Give them an opinion. Make suggestions on how things can be improved. Put it on a web site, post it on a newsgroup. You never know, it might just shape the future of gaming...


You know, I really thought I had a great sense of humour- until I met you...

p.s I happen to own a V-W Beatle-for real!

Pan, the spelling errors were tolerable, but just shouting 'AAH' in the middle of a post serves very little purpose, and the all-caps text does not make the whole any easier to read either. But if you want to resort to abuse and personal insults with no foundation whatsoever, feel free to do so. But hey, no hard feelings on this side, so I'd like the two of us to start with a clean slate.

Bongo, you are welcome, but two points: Most spells take 1 action (or 6 seconds, as you put it) because they are only the final step. Most of the actual casting has already been done while the spells were being prepared, which is much more believable than AD&D's memorization explanation, IMHO. The bladed gauntlet had an errata, and the threat range was severely reduced to a more reasonable 19-20.

Belphanior, as one would say in my language, "eisai magas".(you're okay man!)

And as they say in mine, "jij ook". (you too)

Belphanior wrote:
But it's the last comment in there that makes my blood boil. The lich just hangs around forever, untill somebody walks by to kill him?! You, sir, must have played under the worst DM ever. Liches don't do that, they are powerplayers in the local economy and politics, although many people just do not realize it. Do you honestly think that D&D somehow suggests that critters just exist for the players to slaughter? I pity you...

Get something straight: the d20 license does NOT give credit to WotC for products made with their system. In other words, it can only be judged by what -their- source books include, and not the "house rules", even when made publicly available [on the same shelf], by other people.

WotC is exploiting the License to get their name thought of in the same invocation as anyone else that creates under their aegis. It's already working - take yourself as an example. Then go back and take a good, hard look at the $80 worth of CORE rulebooks [sold as "everything you need to play the game"; see my rant on this elsewhere], and tell me how many pages of WORLD info you notice.

How many lines are devoted to describing roleplaying?


Firecat, you must have misunderstood me. My comment about the lich had nothing to do with WotC or the d20 license. It is about a tendency amongst some GMs (from all walks of life and RPG-system) that the 'bad guys' or even the entire NPC world itself does nothing much except to react to the PCs or to start an adventure.

In my game, you might travel through a friendly town and when you come back two years later, the inn's serving wench might have married. Or to take a lich, you might find he has gotten his rotting hands on one of the mayor traderoutes on the continent, thus giving him more income. Nothing earth-shattering, but at least they *do* something while the PCs aren't around.

I don't quite know how the d20 license got mixed up in that. That is just a mechanic, not a style of play IMHO.

"Do you honestly think that D&D somehow suggests that critters just exist for the players to slaughter?"

You seem to suggest that it doesn't... -shrugs-.

Well no, I indeed think it doesn't because, as you can see, I have experienced a game that runs just fine without any need for violence in it. I know that combat is a classic way of gaining xp, but that is the case in a lot of RPGs. And even with combat, I have seen loads of comments that do indeed give details on the daily life and psychology of certain monsters (books such as I Tyrant, or The Illithiad) or how to run a believable, living & breathing game.

But you haven't responded to my original response: how on earth did you get the d20 license mixed up with my comments about playing style?

Belphanior wrote:
"Do you honestly think that D&D somehow suggests that critters just exist for the players to slaughter?"

FireCat wrote:
"You seem to suggest that it doesn't... -shrugs-."

Whatever D&D suggests, it's just a system, not a book on how to roleplay. Even if the book said "Monsters are just their to give your PC's xp and treasure." The game master decides what he/she does with the book.

One of my D&D table has four rotating DM's (no we don't sit on bar stools as we DM, we switch from being DM to PC every other adventure). Two of the DM's see monsters as FireCat seems to suggest, the other two see them as Belphanior seems to suggest.

Both are valid, depending on what role the "monsters" fill in an adventure. But I must admit, I can't wait for us to switch because mindless monster killing gets boring after a while.

Belphanior wrote:
"And even with combat, I have seen loads of comments that do indeed give details on the daily life and psychology of certain monsters (books such as I Tyrant, or The Illithiad) or how to run a believable, living & breathing game. "

Exactly what I'm saying. But I would change your last sentence to: "or how to run a believable, living and breathing game that is fun for all participants." You would get a kick out of my DMing style where NPCs have interaction outside the main plotline but still have effects on the background and feel of the story. Some other players think I bore them with details that have nothing to do with the main goal of: "Killin the bastiches and gettin da fraggin loot."

But as they say in my ancestors' tongue:
"Chto te mojish delayet moy droog."

It's your game folks, enjoy.

Pan is god. So iz Bongo. Fnord, and be careful of evil WOTC/T plectaines. They are out there to get us all, this may be the last time anyone ever hears from me, I think they are after me (especially Mr.Smith from Virgin/VodaCo. He has a big gun.)

Thankyou all for the symbarastasi and fnord to the best of you.

Bongo, you're two sandwiches short of a picnic.

"Jubilex, if you think D&D is solid, I'd hate to see what you mean by a not solid game."

I said that it was a solid game because you stipulated to it in your rant:

"It's extremely well-balanced and quite good."

After singing its praises the only reason you can articulate for your "hatred" of D&D 3E is that you have a crappy DM. I hear this same kind of whiney crap in the GW game community. Boo hoo, GW is victimizing me with their prices. Their aggressive business tactics are destroying my pathetic little world. God, shut up.

If you don't like the product, or the company, DON'T BUY IT! This is America, damnit. You have that freedom at least...


I will implore you not to invoke your glorious country's ability bestowed upon it's citizens of having the option of not buying a product. I actually live in England and Greece, and you'll be impressed to find that in all of the civilised western world has this option available to it's citizens, so don't try to punctuate your statement by hailing a over-ethnical opinion. Just because you make a post with a "God loves the US of A" doesn't mean you kicked my ass.

And note in my bio: I'M GREEK.

By the way, did you know that a few hundred years ago America had a vote on what the official lingo would be. The three main contenders were English, Ancient Greek and French. English beat Greek by 2 votes. Bet they didn't teach you that in high-school when you were saluting the eagle and the fifty stars...

Hey there history buffs!

Back in the american revolution. Some rebels came up north to ask the recently conquered French Canadians to join them in the rebelion against the king of England. Being the moronic good catholics that they were (and still are sometimes). My ancestors listened to the church who had sold them out to the English invaders for the right to remain catholic.

Damn it! If our ancestors hadn't listened to the church we too could now be free to buy what we want! End of sarcastic comment.

It amazes me how SOME americans think they are the only ones on the net. Ever notice how many brits, aussies and canuks there are here yankee Besides his ethnocentrism, Jubilex was right in his argument that your main point for not liking D&D seems to be the style of your DM.

Have him/her read the "Dungeon Contractor" articles by JS or many other posts in here. It might give your DM a few hints as to how to keep you interested. Or, you could try the game with another DM, I've heard that the concept of gaming clubs has reached England, I'm not sure about Greece though. Oops sorry, all those years of american pop culture are starting to have their effect on me ; ) I love making fun of American and French ethnocentrism.

PS: I'm just kidding oh friendly southern neighbours
that outnumber us 50 to one and could crush us at will.

PPS: Thank God English won by two votes! Greek is so
much harder to learn than English (but not as bad as Latin)

Cthulhu Matata

I wasn't aware that the Greek government put a gun to your head and forced you to buy WoTC products. I recommend you have a revolution of your own if this is true.

And this IS America... THIS being where I am sitting. I'm sorry you misunderstood but that phrase has become a figure of speech over here to indicate our love of personal freedom. I used it as it was intended, not to imply that everyone everywhere is in the U.S.

However, we are kicking all kinds of ass all over the world, and the future of humanity basically sits in the palms of our collective hands. But that jingoist talk doesn't belong on these boards, and I might actually offend someone, so I will refrain.

So, now that we have set aside your feeble attempt to derail my argument, perhaps you can address the real problem with your unfounded and ill-considered rant.

Jubilex, I hate to correct your language, as English is actually my second language (with French and Italian my third and fourth, and Spanish coming along a nice fifth for the last few years), but a phrase is "coined", not invented. i would also be tempted to state that the US is a little far from being a free country. The governemt monitoring everything, from civilian's books rented in libraries to poilitical inclinations. I would dare say that you live in a rather restricting place. Thank God i live in Europe, where we actually recognise that there is a world beyond what the statue of liberty sees. I don't think I need to state that Capital Hill is a copy of the Parthenon in Athens, or that in front of it is Cleopatra's Needle. Or would it be rather evil of me to state that the only real original Americans are the indians you butchered and plundered a few years ago?

If you don't like my rant, that makes two of us. Its not the greatest article I've ever written by far. But D&D 3rd Ed. sucks big-time. It just does. There is no such thing as linear as the d20 system in the whole of the natural universe. Theres no Bell-curve in the whole game! It is just lame....

ps. Fnord.

First, the word "invented" doesn't appear anywhere in my reply.

Second, I'm wondering how much time you have spent in the US, or have you simply come to your conclusions through hearsay? I live and work in Washington, DC and regularly encounter immigrants from dozens of foreign countries. They're here for a reason, and it's not because where they come from is so wonderful.

I've never been to Greece, so I won't jump to conclusions about what it's like to live there. You should extend the same courtesy.


You say that "D&D 3rd Ed. sucks big-time."
However, in your rant you say that "It's extremely well-balanced and quite good."

See the problem here?

Personally, I've found 3E to be superb. I've played D&D since the beginning and WoTC managed to jettison all the internal contradictions, gross imbalances, and silly Gygax-isms that sunk 2E. It's balanced, well tested, and robust.

So, we either agree or we don't. Let me know when you figure that out.

Jubilex, nothing personal-I mean that-, but,

"...regularly encounter immigrants from dozens of foreign countries. They're here for a reason, and it's not because where they come from is so wonderful."
No shit its not so wonderful- after the U.S. has fucked it up!

Have you noticed how many thousands of Afghan immigrants have been coming in these last months? That wouldn't happen have if the U.S. government weren't at war with """terrorism"""! In the U.S. you have access to over 100 channels- I wonder, have you noticed what the hell is going around you? Do you really believe that The US is in this """""Crusade against the axis of evil"""" in order to keep the world save of large scale terrorism and mass destruction weapons? BULLSHIT!!!!!! It's just God bless America, and fuck the rest, that's how it is, I've lived in the US and I know about it.

Whoa there! Looks like Pan blew a freakin gasket.

I know it's fashionable to blame the world's problems on the US but please, we are a very young country. If you want to know how screwed up Afghanistan is you need to look at their history. Same goes for just about anywhere else on this rock.

Besides, the immigrants I'm talking about are from all over the world. Russia, Korea, Sub-Saharan Africa, Central America... they love this country because it offers them something they don't have back home: opportunity.

Let's at least keep this about Bongo's rant, and eschew the juvenile use of repeated quotation marks. If anyone else wants to take a swipe at the US please direct your commentary at that brick wall over there.

If you were a bit familiar with world History you would probably know about the US in the Korean War, and the destabilizing factor of the US in Latin America during the Cold War, supporting dictators in order to keep the Communists under control. Same happened with Greece in 40's-late 50's, ultimately giving the okay for yet another millitary dictatorship in the late 60's, which ended with the occupation of Northern Cyprus. Then you have the MidEast. Remember late 80's? Remember the bombardment of Lybanon? Please, do not insist.
p.s. The Afghan people were in this situation because of USSR.

I am a bit familiar with world history, thank you very much. I've gotten in similar US bashing arguments many times and don't feel I need to get in another one. I suggest you direct your grievences at your local US Embassy, or perhaps the afore mentioned brick wall.

Anyone want to still talk about D&D 3E, or the rant? If not I'll be on my way...

Jubilex don't throw something like:

"However, we are kicking all kinds of ass all over the world, and the future of humanity basically sits in the palms of our collective hands. But that jingoist talk doesn't belong on these boards, and I might actually offend someone, so I will refrain."

And then say:

"Anyone want to still talk about D&D 3E, or the rant? If not I'll be on my way..."

Especially since you do tend prove Pan and Bongo's point that YOU (not all americans) are ethnocentric (by your first argument then the one about why immigrants come to the US).

Anyhow I do agree that we are getting way of topic here.


your argument that D&D sucks as a system doesn't hold, you praised it yourself in your post. The business ethics of WotC is questionnable I'll admit, but the system itself is pretty good. As you said:

"It's extremely well-balanced and quite good. Sufficiently complex to cater for most rules-judges, yet simple enough to be easily mastered for the new players, and in my eyes, this can only be a good thing"

then went on to say:

"D&D is engineered so divinely mathematically, that not even a +1 goes by unaccounted for, not a single ability is more powerful than it's peer, there is no way, on God's (not so) Green Earth you can overpower a D&D character legally. "

Later you said:

"Don't get me wrong, D&D is an oxen-cart load better than the older AD&D, but it does get a little monotonous after a while."

Those last ten words seem to be your only problem with 3E, but as we've said a game system doesn't make a game monotonous. It's the setting and the players. Maybe you're tired of fantasy RPGs, maybe your group sucks, maybe it's not your thing who knows. But don't say that the game is bad for that.

If it were so bad why would it have endured all these years?

Oh and by the way I haven't played Illuminati in ages:
"C'est quoi un Plectaine?"
"What is a plectaine?"
"Que son los plectaine?"
"Chto eto plectaine?"
"0001010010 100110 10 101 10011010010101001"

PS Jubilex, if you don't want to get into US bashing conversations stop "writing" like the USA is God's gift to democracy, I for one am tired of listening to that while your present president is the son of the former chief of the secret police (AKA: CIA) who was himself president and if not for the horrible things that have happened since september 11th would probably be under investigation for electoral fraud. Please spare us the "vierge offensé" attitude and the moralisation.

But then, this is just what I was doing. Sorry folks, I lost it there. Let's keep to gaming related stuff.

Cthulhu Matata to you all.

Sam, that little paragraph about the US kicking ass was intended to be in jest. It was a mistake to even attempt it, obviously.

I'm surprised, however, that you decided to end your post by dwelling on the same off-topic babble. I don't recall saying the USA is God's gift to democracy, or anything like it. I love my country. I know many recent immigrants who do as well. That's all I've said through all these inane attacks, yet people seem determined to pull out their laundry lists of grievences against the US.

Folks, put all your anti-US crap on paper and mail it to the White House. I don't give a rat's ass.

Oh, I have to correct one thing.

Sam, the CIA is not our secret police. The CIA has no jurisdiction in the US. Instead they topple foreign governments and spy on our friends and enemies alike. You'd be more accurate calling them "assassins" or "thugs."

Our secret police is the NSA (National Security Agency). Under the aegis of "national security" the NSA can do just about anything it wants to a private citizen. That agency is bigger and more powerful than the FBI and CIA combined. Thank you Cold War...

Did the editors select this piece at random from usenet or what? I don't mind rants, but there really doesn't seem to be anything that differentiates this from any other disgruntled ex-fanboy screed.

First of all: If you're tired of taking it up the ass for cardboard crack, just say so. No need to elaborate. This site is primarily about RPGs so I doubt most people reading know or care about your in-depth analysis of what WotC did with Magic to piss you off. I know I sure as hell don't.

> The only thing I prayed for, back then, was for WOTC
> to realize that making a M:TG environment for D&D
> 3rd Edition [...] would not go down well if the existing
> backgrounds [...] weren't improved [...] first.

Funny, my worst nightmare was the combination of these two properties. Does Magic even HAVE a "background"?

All the complaints about D&D can be directly attributed to this goober's DM/group and (with some terminology changes) could apply equally well to pretty much every RPG ever created. Game designers in general concentrate on documenting threats because very few players are going to create characters who want nothing more than to settle down and raise spotted blue meeposian llamas.

If you're tired of D&D's settings, just say so. I quit playing the game last year because I'm tired of low-tech settings in general. I don't need to make up shit about how it's somehow WotC's fault that their game does not continue to appeal to me after my 180 degree change in interest. In fact I'm certain that with the right DM I would get right back into the game. If you think about it you'd probably come up with the same certainty, seeing as how nothing you complain about can't be solved by playing with a more "simulationist" DM.

Sorry Jubilex.

I've had a rough week I'm a bit on edge and I didn't get that you were jesting.

And thank you for the correction, funny you called them thugs and assassins I wanted to call them "assassin's guild" but refrained thinking it was to insulting and decided on secret police.

Maybe I've played too much Illuminati and Dark Matter, but don't the CIA and NSA often have a bone to pick because one or the other has overstepped their bounds? Anyhow, I guess Bongo got alot of milleage for his article, even if it was poorly argumented (to begin with).

P.S. Even if I'm no fan of Bush (George Bush and son) I'm not anti US and I'm against any kind of cultural bashing (except when it comes to Evermeet which is populated by cowards, snobs and is ruled pedantic old fools and scheeming immortals).

And no I don't hate elves, I just don't trust those from Evermeet : )

Dear everybody,

I would like to add to all the above, that D+D has become quite a game to cope with for a beginer... Comparing it to othergames, the core structure a new player must be familiar with is just too much... Not to mention the possibility of a player wanting to switch classes, or go multiclass, which requires extra studying on other class features. It is just a nice hack-n-slash game. No role playing.

Oh, Sam
Plektein means conspiracy in Greek.
See ya.

Zmoouk, dmdz nd rck'n'rll.

Pan, First off: "Spaciba moy droug"
I'll get to sleep a wee bit more knowledgeable (Plektain).

Second: ROLEPLAYING HAPPENS REGARDLESS OF THE SYSTEM. You can roleplay playing Fomula-D or Bloodbowl for crying outloud. The system just gives a framework for action, I like the fact that the books don't try too much to define the who/what/how/why/when and where of roleplaying the way some other game systems (GURPS, White Wolf, Alderac, etc.) incorporate rolplaying traits into edges and flaws.

If I decide to play a courteous and generous halfling sorcerer or a self opiniated dwarven rogue I don't see why this should be set in the rules. Isn't that supposed to be between me, the other players and the GM's NPCs. No? Otherwise, where is the roleplaying if you only play a certain way to get some points to buy other feats and edges?

Anyhow, I guess it all depends on what you ask of a system.


I agree that Roleplaying is independent of the game's structure, in a way. However, there are games that encourage roleplaying more than others. For example, I have a friend who likes to play psycho characters. In d+d, this is striktly RolePlay, ok? In GURPS, however, you get extra points for dissadvantages so, you get to play exactly what you like, and get something out of it.
That's how I and my psycho friend see it.

Au revoire mon ami ! (did I say this right?)

Well Pan, you've got a funny definition of role-playing. The GURPS disadvantages don't do anything to foster role-playing. That is a decision that must be made by the player.

In my experience, those disads are more often used by the DM to force some action by the PC.

"Hey, don't you have Fear of Corpses?"

"Um, yea. I guess I don't go in the water."

If players want to role-play, they will. If they don't, they won't.

Mixing my disads... fear of corpses, fear of water... same thing!

What I said was that disads encourage more roleplaying than in d+d. You have quirks for example. Are quirks used by the gm to force the pc into something? no. Most of the disads are chosen by the plasyer willingly, knowing that he will find him/herself in a "one way" situation. You don't just say"oh shit! I can't swim because i have fear of water because i am a cat-warior". That is what differentiates your pc from the rest, and makes the game more realistic.

Two things:

1 - I'm with Jubilex on this, giving points for disads, quirks or flaws often makes the extra points the main objective behind taking a flaw/quirk/disad and roleplaying a character then becomes something you have to do in exchange for those points.

2 – One spelling mistake, that's "Au revoir" no "e" at the end. Otherwise, "très bien".

C Ya

Yeah, I'd have to agree with Jubilex as well. I do usually allow disads in my games (if the game in question has such a thing) but I'm very careful with them. Luckily, my players are quite mature by now. They do not take Colorblind to stock up on Secret Crouching Ninja Lotus Petal Deathblow techniques. That is just wrong.

I think that Pan is correct, and that giving players extra character points is good for RP, despite the risk that players will end up with a lame, colourblind, terminally ill, dwarf-pirate thats scalped, has haltosis and one thumb, glows in the dark and has a fear of cheese but can easily pull off Belphanior's afforementioned (see last post) Deathblow. As a GM, I'd rather have to remind players to play to their disads than experience what I went through as a newbie with D&D, where I was supposed to as strong as the rest of the group, but the character style I wanted to play hindered me constantly if I wanted to be in character. While playing a rather mistrusting and anti-social type was a conscious decision on my part, I quickly realised that the rest of the team had chosen characters that miraculously, although they were completely unique, all coinsidentially were magnificent team-workers and as though by magic fitted together like pieces of a puzzle. I found this incredibly frustrating at the time, and when I asked the DM, he said it's not his fault the rest of the team had chosen to play good characters. Now, in my GURPS game, one of the team members is intollerant of the "petty" others and snobs them out incestantly, while another one doesn't mind lobbing a grenade right next to the others in the group or friendly-firing them, because he's convinced that although they are all helping him out to a common goal, they are in truth aliens from another planet and they want to abduct him (again).

long-live disads, although as Budha said, the middle way is the best. Neither have to force players to play negatively, nor have to brighten-up players who are next to useless, but absolute killers in one and one thing only.


Most bizarre to stumble on this site and find this anti-America ranting. This shouldn't be here on this website. After having some mild fun perusing some of the articles, then coming across this, I doubt I'll be back.

In the meantime, as a survivor of the events of September 11th, and also having lost a family member in the attacks, I am particularly glad that you people don't need to be relied on to fight the resulting war. Of course, there was nothing particularly wrong with Bongo's original article, just his later lack of couth.

PS: 'coin' is defined as 'to invent a word or phrase'.

aog: Here's a Paraphrasing of what you said:
"People shouldn't state there opinions when I dissagree with them. Because Our Country has suffered a massive tragedy (as did I) you should all like us as a country. Oh, and I don't think I'll return to this site because of comments made outside an article"

Sounds a lot like what you said, doesn't it?

And There was no resulting war, at least as Bush defines it, since a "war" would require the US army to obey the Geneva Conventions as far as prisoners go.

Looking back at that, I'm not so sure I should post it, since it's inflammatory and irrelevant to the article. I suppose I will, but I'd like to apologise in advance if anyone was offended by that.

And Bongo: How is White Wolf any better than WOTC?
I mean, they MAKE d20 system games, even though THEY have enough money to use their own system.

My only beef with Wizards was the discontinuation of the Alternity line, and that's understandable, since it didn't really make them money.

Well, Labyrus, I've never played white-wolf games, although I was dearly tempted to many times, I suppose they are trying to capitalise on the D20 system's success and universality. As far as marketing is concerned, that is a wise move, because it opens them up to a target market of players who dont want to learn a new system, but want to play a different environment. It's understandable, but it doesn't make WW any better. At least WW have some variety in their game settigns.

I still think GURPS if the big-daddy of GM innovation. Recently I pondered making a time-travel, cyberpunk, psionics, mech-exoskeletons, marrtial-arts, space-travel, voodoo-heavy campaign, influenced by Gibson's Count Zero, the Heavy Gear original game, awfully-dubbed chinese martial arts flics, the Matrix society, and most importantly, big-BIG GUNS. I don't think many RPGs out there offer that kind of flexibility... Or Gun caliber variety!

And remember, always prefer anchovies over sardines.

Alternity now that was a nice system (except for their character classes, but still, a very nice system). And Bongo, when has SJ games actually invented something? They actually produce quite alot of nice products which I often buy. But beyond the few homegrown settings, they have just borrowed material from other games (in some cases they just took whole games and revamped them "a la gurps")

And remember Bongo, fish and pizza don't mix well especially after red wine.

Well, Sam, i agree with you rhat SJG don't really innovate, but at the end of the day, as a GURPD player/GM I go to the games shop and have 5 feet of thickness worth of book backs to choose from. Steampunk, Cthulupunc, Cops, Ice-age, Mecha, Fantasy, Vikings, Atlantis, Alpha Centauri, Frence Revolution... I swear there should be a 60-s porn star one somewhere there... (Immagine that... "bushy 'tash, (5-pt adv.) : Gain +1 reaction from anyone in the porn industry. Hippy Imunity (10-pt adv.) : Neglect negative penalties due to unshaved legs and arm-pits. Gain +1 reaction(thats karma, dude) from other hippies. This adv. not available for non-hippy players. Extra-Strong-Neck (5-pt adv.) Neglect any penalties from wearing multiple heavy gold chains/medalions around neck, and whiplash from too-large afros. Vilage Bycicle (-10-pt. disad.) You have to roll vs. will every time a sexual advancement is made on you. Others defend against contracting a sexual-disease from you at -4 Gain +2 sex appeal.)

And I hope you don't mean to say that tuna-fish with prawns pizza coveres in anchovies is bad karma, because I'll come over to canada et je vais venir habiter avec toi, jus'que tu viens de comprendre la bonheur du poisson, mon enfant... and if anyone who knows any french understands that, I'll eat my hat. with prawns. Fnord.

Jubilex, where did u leave your brain? Now, this is a forum concerning games and fun and NOT the american (note the omission of the capital letter) super"balisstic" complex... may I suggest u shut in and use the palm of your collective hands to wipe your ass. thank you and good dye.

Oh no! Here we go again! Please Jubilex don't answer, Olatunde O. Jr. just read the stuff Bongo, Jubilex, I and others exanged, agree or dissagree but let it be... please. By the way Bongo, what's your take on Star Wars? And you Jubilex?

Hmm....well I may agree with you about magic, I think you're completely wrong about DnD. First, rules that cut down on the munchies are great! Second, a 3E PC can kick the tail out of any 2E PC made. Wizards have more spells, fighters have more abilities etc. If you truly think that a person need become 'uber' then check out the prestige classes. They make a character as uber as possible.

Third, you cannot blame 3E or WOTC about the things you do not like in settings such as FR. Maybe you should check out the d20 or OGC license. You have a multitude of publishers from which to choose. However, you seem to have forgotten that as a GM, you can make your own! If you do not like a world, then fix it or create one that you can enjoy. GMs have been doing it for a long time. You never have to use their settings or adventures. In fact, you only need spend money on three books, PHB, DMG, MM.....


To whom it may concern,

Here is a fact, For those of you who were or are members of the RPGA have a possible lawsuit against WOTC & the RPGA. We are investigating!

Well, in the long and short of it, The RPGA can not force you to convert your LC Characters to 3E, because it fits there need. Your gaming Characters are considered your own personal Intellectual Property.

Just like Microsoft, the RPGA can not stop supporting the older gaming systems because it fits there needs, much like Microsoft can not Stop supporting Window 3.1.

If you had paid your membership dues to play second edition, the RPGA must provide you the opportunity to continue to play 2E whether they like it or not.

Your 2E Character can not be forced to convert into 3E rules because the RPGA says convert.

This would be like NBC telling Dana Carvey that IP Entity named "Church Lady" must now be converted from Catholism to Judism because the CEO is now Jewish. This is wrong and so is the conversion process!

If you have any issues with the 3E Conversion process, Stay tuned for more information about an up and coming Lawsuit.

- Peace -

Alright. I have to ask. What kind of crack are these people smoking to think they can sue over the change from 2nd to 3rd edition in the RPGA? I've been in the RPGA for years. Had a character for LC that I never converted over to 3E. Just because I can no longer play that character doesn't mean anything. It just means I had to make a new character for LC. Which I did, played once, and then went back to LG. Man from Des Plaines, you are smoking some serious rock! Maybe if you drop some Valium you'll be able to come down and take the edge off a bit.

bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha !

Oh Boy Des Plaines must have the best mushroom patches. Jeezus man what colour is the sky in you hallucination? A law suit for being "forced" to convert to 3E. oh please let me know how it turns out.
Only in North America can you plead such a case and not be charged with contept. Are you the same person who sued CrackerJacks for millions for duress and missrepresentation when you didn't find a surprise in the box?

Thanks for the laughs though.

Cthulhu Matata

You guys are obviously being trolled by a joke :^)
This person is just making a parody of gamers who take their hobby a bit too seriously. I don't believe anybody could take it that seriously.

Unfortunately, I HAVE run into people that take it seriously enough to contemplate something like that.


remember the lady who got 2.5 millions because she got burned by her cofee at McDonalds'? No claim of lawsuit can ever be considered just a joke anymore.

True, true. I just returned from a visit to the gaming store to pick up some new modules, where I was reminded of my nerdocracy roots. It's been a while since I've been there. It seems that in every gaming store, there is a fat pimply customer wearing a long black trenchcoat and jeans as if it is still cool. I was that guy in the mid '80's. Fat men with long hair in a pony tail -another classic gamestore fashion. Some people do take these things that seriously.

As a side point, after 2 'official' modules (Bastion, and Iron Keep) and 2 Dungeon modules, I once again find that the work in Dungeon is much better. It appears that the only 'official' WOTC modules of good playing quality are Sunless Citadel and Heart of Nightfang Spire. Dungeon is usually much better than the rest of the crap they put out.

I am glad there was some feed back on this subject matter. As much as I do like mushroom (not the magic ones) I am very serious about this.

Here is my contention. I have been an RPGA member for 19 Years and enjoyed every bit of it. However, the RPGA is a gaming association and not a gaming company (i.e. WOTC, Parker Brothers, TSR, HASBRO, Westend, etc).

I find that I am not allowed to Volunteer, Judge, Play, or participate in interactives at any conventions held by this gaming association unless I spend another $150+ (just starting out) on new gaming materials.

Not only can I not particpate anymore, but, I can not develope my IP any further than what it has been developed. In Fact, my IP must be forceably redesigned.

It is not that the RPGA can not play or allow us to play 2nd edition and keep 2nd edition games going, it is that they wanted to eliminate their responsibilities to their members and increase the bottom line of WOTC by forcing their members to pay $150+ for new gaming material. It is much like extortion. convert or begone.

In my 19 years as an RPGA member, I must have spend $2000+ on all of my gaming materials and subscriptions.

Now, the RPGA says, oh well, throw out your $2000 worth of gaming material and start over, and by the way you must convert to 3E or not be a member of our organization in any way shape or form?! Bull S**T.

Maybe you like liking a the salt stone by your gaming area and licking it for a grain of salt. But, I can not see being force to have a salt stone in my gaming area.

I have quit the RPGA because of this and can not see being forced to spend more money to play games just because a gaming association say to do so.

"Maybe you like liking a the salt stone by your gaming area and licking it for a grain of salt. But, I can not see being force to have a salt stone in my gaming area."

This expression is beyond my comprehension (could be because english is a second language to me) please explain.

OK so you spent 2000$ over 19 years. That's over 105$ a year. Just add 45$ this year and your are still in the RPGA.

You don't have to burn your old material, just adapt it. It is still excellent material (some of it at least).

Just a thought.

PS How goes the lawsuit?

CThulhu Matata

A few comments from a GURPS player...

It's true that GURPS has a kind of blandness to it owing to the fact that most of its supplemental material consists of more rules, or lists of equipment, or historical information, with a much smaller emphasis on actual world material. SJG certainly hasn't created anything as "cool" or as famous as, say, the World of Darkness games, and I think only in the case of Traveller can they claim to have supported any world as well as some other companies.

But to consider this "lack of support" a flaw would be to totally ignore GURPS' strengths and even its premise: unlike TSR/WOTC's generic fantasy worlds, or WW's "play a supernatural creature" games, GURPS is first and foremost a set of rules to which any settijng could theoretically be grafted. Bongo's comment about the "time-travel, cyberpunk, psionics, mech-exoskeletons, martial-arts, space-travel, voodoo-heavy campaign" is spot-on.. even if many GURPS settings aren't quite this schizophrenic. ;)

As far as disads encouraging roleplaying or munchkinism, this is a function of your players, not the game. They will do what THEY want to do, whether it's creating a character full of flaws and abilities and playing him to the hilt, or striving to make the most obscene combat monster the GM will allow and then cutting a bloody swath through fields of faceless foes (say that five times fast!). One optional character creation rule that has been suggested for GURPS is to give people the points that they would normally get from disadvantages for free, but then not make taking disads worth more points; I haven't used this myself (yet) but people who have often report good results.

It is hard finding a reputable attorney that has not worked for TSR, Inc. WOTC, inc. or an associate of them. I have asked about 7 Attorneys thus far...

I have had three attorney tell me I have a great case and the other 4 tell me a good case. In fact one attorney said he would take only 20% of the recovery letigations costs. However, he wanted $3,000 up front.

Four attorneys I asked - have worked TSR, Inc or WOTC.... Bummer....

Oh boy Man from des plaines.

Only in North America can such a hilarious case be submited to court.

Do you realize that in some european country you could be charged for contempt with such a law suit?

No wonder lawyers are seen as vultures; 20%! this means they intend you to win what... 20K or 30K for the pain and anguish you have suffered. .. pff...bwa ha ha!

Oh but then I notice you are looking for a REPUTABLE lawyer. That could explain how hard it is for you to find someone to work on your case.

Anyhow, here's hoping the thining line on the map that seperates our two countries lasts until I die.

Cthulhu Matata.

Hey, man, speaking as an American.. stupid lawsuits weren't MY idea.

Now, I could say some things about Quebec.. but can we please get back to talking about games? ;)

By the way, please note that I used the term NORTH America, not United States of America. There is still a distinction (however hazy it becomes each year).

We get our fair shares of half baked law suits here too which is why I said North America.

Still, speaking of games, this whole crying over the "they switched editions on me" thing is a false problem, to me at least.

a ) Do the math, 150$ to re-equip yourself is about as much as the average gamer spends a year right?

b) Does your 1st and 2nd edition become obsolete? Everything that pertains to rules does, the background, the modules, the characters (you know all the stuff that actually makes the game fun) is still valid. Me and my friends have started converting modules and campaigns to 3E. It's a blast, the same adventures become something else in 3E, also (while we're at it) we tweek all the stuff that didn't work for us when we DMed them in the 80's and 90's. But that's our fun and maybe not yours.

c) If the RPGA no longer suits your need leave em! Don't stick with em for nothing. Even marriages get broken and THEY are SUPPOSED to be till death do us part. Being a member of any gaming community isn't such a deep commitment and should only be done while it suits your gaming needs. If you can't join em or change em, leave em and start your own thing. There are enough disgruntled 2nd editioners to start another association. Don't you think?

As a side note to Xplo Aristotle: Sure they weren't YOUR idea, they're the lawyers idea. You still gotta admit though that Des Plaines' lawsuit seems a bit far fetched no? If he wins, it'll be one for the joke books.

Oh and by the by, Xplo, GURPS is a great system and many of its supplements are little treasures of inspiration for any system.

I especially liked the Cyberpunk and Supers adventures and how they gave you tips as to how to adapt them to other genres.

Many sourcebooks could easily be blended together: Terradyne, Cthulhupunk, Mars and Cyberworld among others. Add Horror, Psionics, Space and Cyberpunk and you got yourself a little gem of a campaign world.

I've had one of the best campaign of my gaming life using this system. But then all the games this particular set of players were in were especially good. Thanks for the fun Guillaume, Greg and Martin.

That's _E_ristotle.. it's a Discordian reference. ;) But no offense taken.

I was going to say there's really no reason why you'd need to use a bunch of different GURPS books to base a setting on, because the comments here kind of make it sound like every GURPS world *has* to be some oddball cross-genre thing.. but the fact is, it does tend to happen anyway, just because they go together so well. That, and of course the fact that you want to get plenty of use out of something you've paid for. So once you have a dozen sourcebooks or so, you start to look at your collection and think, "gee, I *could* make a campaign about spacefaring Celts..."

Exactly oh and don't forget the Nazi mutants vs Astec Starfarer genre...

Seriously it's the possible weirdness of the cross overs that has always drawn me to GURPS I mean why use a generic system if not to surprise your players with what can pop in?

D20 is soooo getting like that it's becoming scary. Traveler, Starwars, Cthulhu, D&D, D20 Modern RPG, etc.
What if the rebels found RLEYH? What if a bunch a Soviet regiment fell out of a portal in the middle of Anauroch? Mind you it's best not to get too crazy except as a one shot deal. But think... D20 X-Com UFO the RPG... you already have all you need...

Sorry about the A Eristotle.

Spacefaring Celts... wasn't that spelljammer?

Chaos and joy to you all

Hey it's not like EVERYONE in the US is crazy.

Okay, strike that.

So there was this gamer and he was a nerd and he had alot of money so he decided to sue over something REALLY stupid.

Am I close to the point of this whole thing?