True home-brew realm?


Ive seen alot of posts and articals about people's home-brewed realms but after seeing the detials i see they are full of bogus-bull when it comes to taking credit for building a true realm on their own.

it seems everyone has incorperated or taken from existing realms or moduals, and then slapped the "my own realm" tag on it.

Some of these home-brewers have taken the time and energy to fabricate a nice realm with tons of self-made aspects, but when it boils down to realm-mechanics, or monsters, or religeions or simply the cultures of the world-you find that much of it was simply re-used dragonlance,ebberon,greyhawk, etc, junk they took from other artists of fantasy.

so..what i want to know is- how many of you brewers actually would rather cut a finger off then use a pre-made "anything" in your realm? how many of you world-makers really spent the time and energy to really NOT take from any source book or mod? how many of you can actually speak freely and widely about your own gods insted of rambling out the names of published gods? seriously, i would NEVER take a damn name, god, religeion, or setting from anywhere but my own head.

my realm has been active for over 20 years. I have suffered blisterd fingers and red-dry-eyes in the face of crafting over 5 complete books on the realm we play in. and yes, its all mine. Its all "ours" (me n my players).

when i see posts saying its almost impossible to run or create a world that is nothing like another, it makes me vomit. There is only one way you can make absolutly sure that your realm dosnt steal from published sources...not buy them, not read them, not know a damn drop about them.

i admit ive read every source book over time, but my realm was fully working for about 8 years before i even took a look at a single modual. i can plainly and proudly say

"our realm is the birth-thing of my mind and my mind alone" and all those who enter it are painfully aware that
1-my races are my cant assume a damn thing
2-my churches are my churches, you cant assume a damn thing
3-my lands are my lands, you dont know a damn thing about them till you play there or know sumone who has.
4-i have stolen nothing from anyone other then monsters from manuals (and those are often re-crafted) and items from handbooks (and again...fully re-tweeked to make them my-own)

anyone out there feel this way? anyone out there fully agree? anyone out there saying "bull-crap man! thats impossible!?"

just board and at work..looking for sumthing to read.

Well, bully for you. Myself, as I have a family, a full-time job and a variety of other pursuits I don't get the time to home-brew everything, although I hardly ever use a campaign, setting or module strictly as published; I shamelessly plunder the good bits or use the module as inspiration. I don't make any claims of originality. But then my primary concern is the enjoyment level of my playing group.

I also develop plenty of my own material, mind. I have a shelf that groans under the weight of it. That's just the stuff that makes it to hard copy.

when i see posts saying its almost impossible to run or create a world that is nothing like another, it makes me vomit. There is only one way you can make absolutly sure that your realm dosnt steal from published sources...not buy them, not read them, not know a damn drop about them.

Well, do you have human beings in your campaign setting? Just curious.

One thing about having a totally original setting is how well the players relate to it. The thing is, unless their characters are assumed to start out as newborns, it is unrealistic for the characters to have no prior familiarity with the world setting. But if you have a *truly* original world that has nothing in common with, say, earth's history or cultures, then how can the players role-play what their characters would know?

By the way I do respect your position. But I don't think that original vs unoriginal is a binary judgement. We all have our influences. Sometimes we re-express these influences in a very direct way, i.e plagiaristically (if we simply regurgitate without acknowledging the original). Sometimes we combine several influences and create a synthesis which is something new. But I don't think that ideas spring from a void.

We are not always conscious of our influences, of course:

Myself, I am highly skeptical when anyone, in any field of endeavor, makes claims to being 100% original.

When it comes to fantasy world-building, I have yet to see the fantasy world that does not borrow from some real-world culture or period of history.

There are reasons for this. I have been creating fantasy settings of my own for roughly twenty years, and I have noticed something: there is a limit to what even the most inventive person can create.

The more energy put into free-form fantasy, the better it is likely to be; but again, I haven't seen the work of anyone whose inventiveness is consistently strong.

This is particularly true when it comes to fantasy names. I have grown quite tired of names that have that generic-fantasy sound to them -- something influenced by Tolkien, as often as not, whether or not the "creator" of the name is aware of the influence.

In my most recent setting-building endeavors, I have found that picking a strong theme and sticking to it is the most rewarding. One of my more recent is openly a "reflection" of Dark-Ages Earth. What are its strengths? I can provide a host of names that don't have a generic fantasy sound to them; I can provide a wealth of detail about any region of my map after a little research; and best of all, my players have some idea what their world is like and how their characters fit into it.

That said, I applaud any and all persons who throw out the baseline assumptions of Fantasy as a genre and try to create something new. Witness:

  • Skyrealms of Jorune
  • The Empire of the Petal Throne
  • The myriad little alien details of The Elder Scrolls setting

If you can create an entirely new conception of magic; if you can create languages of your own, as Tolkien himself did (and many lesser lights have tried and failed to do); if you can create a setting where the alienness of the world is something more than adding a moon or two -- where fundamental differences in gravity, atmosphere, or biochemistry give your world a complete sense of itself, then bravo.

But many people seem to think they're creating something wholly original when what they're really doing is creating something very derivative indeed. Sifolis, if your setting is as original as you say it is, why not market it? There is a little money to be made in such endeavors. However, let me suggest you retain the services of a copy editor -- you're either typing quite fast, or your spelling needs more work than is usual for someone who has been designing worlds for twenty years.

For the record, I dislike using modules and existing, prepackaged setting material myself -- I find that my own research yields much better dividends.

Yeah...the older I get, the more I plunder.

My current D&D campaign began nearly 10 years ago and it was set on my own self-made world...which I'd designed the same way REH designed the Hyborian Age...basically, each land bore a striking resemblance to somewhere in Europe / Asia.

Anyway, as I got older, I found that I had more and more things to keep me busy and, thus, the amount that I borrowed from other sources kept growing.

I'd *love* to spend more time making my world more my own...but I don't have time (unless I start getting paid for it).

As far as true originality goes...someone once told me that nearly every fantasy creature conceived is at least one-part something that you can find in the wild. The Chimera is an obvious example -- the aliens in Aliens are awfully bug-like...and so on.

And didn't Chekov once say that there are really only two stories...Cinderella and Jack and the Beanstalk...anything else is just a variation on those themes?

Anyway, I agree...the original / un-original notion shouldn't be a binary thing. Not all inspiration is plagarism.

I agree with the last three posts. Besides, I would rather be relevant than original when it comes to theme, material, and setting. Confronting players with a new perspective is often more original than making up something new.

I agree with everyone else here as well, but I'm not quite as nice as some of the other people on this I have to ask: when are you going to write the definitive article on completely original settings? I know I could benefit from a few time management strategies for game full time job, my career as a DJ on the side, and my life away from the gaming table would likely improve if only I too could craft a completely original setting from no outside influences whatsoever.

What are your ideas on where the people in my world will retreat to in a seige? That's about to become an issue in my current campaign, and I don't want castles in my world anymore...I can't bear the thought of being influenced by anything anymore.

On a side note, does anyone want to buy over 150 d20 source books? I won't be needing them anymore since Sifolis set me straight on all my bogus-bull. I guess Sifolis won't need them though...he's read every sourcebook over time. Any other takers?

When I first started reading this article I tended to agree with it in an amused sort of way. The more that I read, the less I agreed with. I'll explain why...

"when i see posts saying its almost impossible to run or create a world that is nothing like another, it makes me vomit. There is only one way you can make absolutly sure that your realm dosnt steal from published sources...not buy them, not read them, not know a damn drop about them."

By writing an article ranting about being original, creative, not stealing from other sources, blah blah blah, I had assumed that you meant making your own material up. Creating from a void is impossible. Fortunately, you were only talking about published roleplaying material. You overlooked the impact that authors such as Tolkein, Jordan, Williams, and Brust have had on the gaming industry in regards to game world design, character design, and adventures. Movies, comics, and TV have also made a serious impact.

"so..what i want to know is- how many of you brewers actually would rather cut a finger off then use a pre-made "anything" in your realm? how many of you world-makers really spent the time and energy to really NOT take from any source book or mod? how many of you can actually speak freely and widely about your own gods insted of rambling out the names of published gods? seriously, i would NEVER take a damn name, god, religeion, or setting from anywhere but my own head."

Inventing names, gods, or religions is impossible without using a source. I combine different real world religions, tweak them a bit, and throw them into the world. They are my creation but they are based on reality. I design cultures based on real ones, and have players pick names that suite whatever culture that they are from. Even Tolkein used real world source material.

"i admit ive read every source book over time, but my realm was fully working for about 8 years before i even took a look at a single modual. i can plainly and proudly say
"our realm is the birth-thing of my mind and my mind alone" and all those who enter it are painfully aware that

1-my races are my cant assume a damn thing

2-my churches are my churches, you cant assume a damn thing

3-my lands are my lands, you dont know a damn thing about them till you play there or know sumone who has.

4-i have stolen nothing from anyone other then monsters from manuals (and those are often re-crafted) and items from handbooks (and again...fully re-tweeked to make them my-own)"

1. You say that your races are your own, but I bet that you have all the stock fantasy races including elves, dwarves, humans, whatever. You probably just tweaked them a bit like Tad Williams did to elves (Sithi).

2. Your Churches are probably a compilation of real world churches. While religion is probably the easiest thing to invent on your own, outside of the land itself, you still probably had some real world base for your religion. The Catholic Church and the Norse Gods are two of my favorites and historically speaking, the favorites of most gaming related authors.

3. By "my lands", I'm gonna assume that you mean cultures as opposed to geography. Again, completely inventing a culture that has no basis in an existing culture is almost impossible. Especially a detailed culture complete with laws, religion, language, holidays, dress, weapons and armor, technological level, fashion, and all the rest.

4. This clause negates your whole article. You write something ranting about how other people aren't creative or dedicated enough to make up their own stuff, and then end it by saying that you do the same thing that you are mad at them for doing.

Freely admitting that you steal monsters from published gaming supplements and then "tweaking" them to fit your world puts you on the same level as the gamers that you've lambasted throughout this article for using elements of published gaming supplements and worlds like DragonLance, Ebberon, and Greyhawk to spice up their world.

If "Some of these home-brewers have taken the time and energy to fabricate a nice realm with tons of self-made aspects" then who cares what it boils down to? Why act all self-rightous when you do the same thing that they do, just to a lesser degree than most?

BTW Spellcheck is your friend. Please use it.

"The best leaders inspire by example. When that's not an option, brute intimidation works pretty well too."

Without some basic frame of reference, I find the players don't get into the game so much because they spend so much time trying to figure the world out. If _everything_ is new/unusual, then the players have a difficult time visualizing their PCs in the environment.

That is not to say that _everything_ has to be like every other game/book/movie, etc... Just that some things that are kept "normal" make the transition from reality to fantasy a little more bearable.

What are your ideas on where the people in my world will retreat to in a seige? That's about to become an issue in my current campaign, and I don't want castles in my world anymore...
Not sure if you're kidding here, Scott, but the first impression I had on reading this was that it would make a good thread in itself. Dwhoward once observed that castles and walled cities make a bit less sense in a world where flying cavalry (pegasi, dragons, etc etc) exist; but his observation was that if we threw out castles, we might as well rebuild a fantasy world from first principles, and that it would therefore be unrecognizable to the average gamer. I came along about a year too late to join that conversation, but my response was: well, so what?

Instead of dogpiling Sifolis here, what about putting our collective minds to the task of determining what a fantasy fortress really would be like?

Well, maybe to keep the air-cav out it would have to be some kind of underground bunker. Like a dungeon, I guess.......

Hey! Who'd have thought it? Gary Gygax was right all along!

Oh no no...I'm defineatly kidding. There's flip, sarcasm, and bitter innuendo...I do all three, but this was flip.

I've actually always wondered about stuff like this..what would a completely non-influenced world look like? It's kind of like a koan if you think about it. If a world is built in a creative vacuum, what *would* it look like?

Scott Free said: If a world is built in a creative vacuum, what *would* it look like?

And would it make a sound?

wow..what a bunch of samatical dorks trying to nit-pick a few holes in a quickly written peice of crap i typed at work in under 3 minutes. but ill try to point out the gaps i found in reading what you retorted.

Almost all of you bring up the fact that an artist must stand on the shoulders of giants, that nothing is born in a void, that everyone in fantasy (game or book) MUST steal from the real world...this is so "duh" that i have to wonder how tight your "fisher-price-my-first-#ickhead-cap" is wrapped around your head.

I was pointedly pointing out the "wrongness" i feel about "stealing" or "using" published works of fantasy...not things created from thin air by looking around your damn world and producing somthing out of thin air just by reflecting your visions onto paper...this is what art is about. i was talking about taking from D&D sources...nothing more. with that said, half the #hit you pompass ass-heads just spat at me is ditched and done. i never once said anyman should create anything without opening his eyes to the world around him..that would be both impossible and stupid.

also...when i said i take two things from the books to use in my game (monsters and items)i ment it (unless you nit picking brats wanna say...'ah! you use RULES! RULES TOO! SEE?! YOUR WRONG!!!). when i say this, i mean that i use elvs, orcs, humans etc...but then again my humans are all man-made, much like dopplegangers, created by a elven wizard named Vaytrhue, who wanted a lesser being to human has a soul. My elves are a shattered demi-god who in a fit of anger lashed out agaisnt a major god and was broken apart into a thousand shards. those thousand elves still live today. the crude are equally have self-brewed design behind their orgins, as does everything in my realm.

now...first off, lemmie say, i didnt post this to read a million posts from people who "steal from works" cus they have no time. I didnt want to read from every dime-a-dozen thief who wants to spit on people who find that sort of thing lazy. In-fact i didnt even tell you how STRONGLY i feel about people like that, i was polite and left it nicely. what i truly feel is this

"people like the lot who returned this post with nothing but rude words or blind stupidity, are lower then i am on the mental ladder. i could prolly walk across your gene pool and keep the tops of my nikes dry"

but i didnt go there...till now. and you took me there, cus your a bunch of #icks!

also, what you read was typed (just like this one) in a ten minute break at work. i was bord, locked in a room with a desk and nothing but this forum to use for communication...i didnt know it was an open line for bitter punks who want to poke holes in conversation just so they can feel "bright" or "better"...i posted this to find other people who have shelvs of #hit dealing with their creations. i just wanted to meet somone like me who has worked making a full world.

as for wondering how valid my creation is as an original work or concept...thats fine...i dont hold any one in bad light for wondering such. becuase i also doubt most people's work or creations for the reason that most people say they "made sumthing" and its just Lord-o-t-rings all over again, or just a dragon-lance story with no attention to pace or plot. fine.

but heres some things ive done...of course you horror-monger #uck-mouthed, semi-sentient-simp-chimps are prolly gunna roll your eyes or just point out typos.

I not only have created a D&D realm in my spare time, but i have more directly spent over 15 years developing and designing a roll-playing game of epic size (8 books now) , its fully illustrated, binded, written and refined by 2 professional editors, and its very close to the time that me and my team try to market it. the process is long and very expensive, but its been a great journy that just turned into a huge WILL be published, and its completely revolutionary to the way RPGs are played. the game is currently withgoing its 5th revision in its rules, and is fully playable. it has a huge fan-base of about 50 or so players who are addicted to it. but %uck it, i guess i stole all that info from asia or eygpt or sumthin. whatever.

as for the guy who says "im a dj, i got no time to make a world" shut up dude. im a dj, a real one..and yknow what that means? it means i got over 50-grand worth of tech, and a FAKE JOB that i do on the side. cus thats what a dj is, a fake worker. we both know its about getting ass and making a party happen. its not work. im also in a band with two recording studios (one anolog, one digital) and ive had my band on both radio and local telivision...we pack a house, record 1-2 albums a year, and i produce about 7 bands in my area (some from newyork). but do i still have free time?

free time with
two jobs?
a child?
a girlfriend?
a design team of over 11 people who have created a fully working game complete with binded books that have gone through 5 revisions of editing and rule expansion?

and...a frickin home brewed realm..that i have bled my heart and soul into...

you dorks.


who would want to play any game with a bunch of people who just wanna poke sticks at people cus they are so unhappy with themselvs?

ps- never did i ever say that a realm that has been purchased or stolen from "cant" be fun. I have played in many games where people stole from dragonlance or whatnot..but it was fun. i simply dont enjoy doing that.

but thanks really did a good job at joing the convo. really. i see why this site gets so MANY hits (5 a week?). must be the company that lurks here waiting to bite, bitch n moan.

pps- also keep in fricken sexy too. you fat slobs

/me snickers.

Ya know, a lot of the things that you said about your world makes it sound very interesting. Having read that and what you have written would have made me very interested in playing the game that you have invented. Even now, I find myself compelled to try it, though more out of morbid curiousity than anything else. You know why?

Because your childish immature tantrum of a post showed that you are not capable of putting together a mature worthwhile intelligent product. Maybe that's why you had so many people helping you. Eleven assistants and two editors, right? That's a lot of help...

It also doesn't help your cause that you don't care enough to use basic grammar. For someone who has written a whole roleplaying game system and a bookshelf full of books, that means that either you don't care and shouldn't be writing here or you're an idiot. Or both, I could go with that.

Keep your venom to yourself.


look punk, im immature? fine..i sure am. it comes from being so damn fun and jolly. i threw a tantrum? hell no i didnt. look brother, if i wanted to waste time in a typed-tantrum, then bet your freeky-deeky-ass that it would be produced with no typos, sharp and witty, and as funny as two-dogs butt-#ucking your mother in the rain. insted i simply resorted to your level and spoke my mind with no care to if i was rude or not...dick.

second, 11 people working on a role-playing game is alot? here i am studying how to publish this one (did i mention one of our team in this is an artist for white-wolf?) ive found that most games take dozens of people (go ahead roach, read a fricken inside-cover and see how many people are involved)

anyway...since you think 11 is alot in a creatiove process, and that you MUST be MORE mature then me...ill just chalk this all up to why your point behind your posts boils down to

"i steal from other realms"

anyway...yes, you rule, i dont.

one more thing...

why are you so rude? why are you so fast to grab anything you can to smash those who enjoy a common hobby? the post was all about people who steal from D&D published works, yet you turned it into a long-winded river of crap, pointing out that a man must look to the world from insperation and that i am the very thing that i am posting agaisnt cus my cultures and creatures were on planet earth before i wrote about them....

dude, thats going a loooooooooong way to make a man wrong. since that had nothing to do with what i first said.

and bet your ass youd play any game i ran. and you wouldnt want another DM after that, cus im that damn good

im save it for your little cave of blood thirsty virgins. im strong, wicked slick and sexy as drop-dead-anything.

your lucky i dont steal your girl and then give her aids.

I prolly shuldnt doo thiz...but i gots ta. Taak id frum mee, ur barqing upp thu rong trea tryin ta get peepz ta taak u seriuzly on thiz sight bye beeng a asshat. I cant thunk of aneethung uls to sae ta u butt congrads on haffing soo much muny thatt u haf a edidor...maebee u shuld let himn eddit ur posts's?

Butt, Iam gladd thatt ur dee jay curear is so gud that u no thatt miin iz not. Gud luk inn nu yorrk.

Translation of above post:

You're now on watch don't want to cross over into "dead to me", cause I'm not the nicest person in the world when I get my dander up. You haven't made that happen yet, cause you amuse me with your rants. Just don't cross the line. As I've said before, people can say whatever they want about games, gaming, and the different rules systems out there and I'll debate about it as long as you want. As soon as you step into the realm where you are bashing the people that play those games, it's flame on time.

-in this area i originally had a big ass rant about putting your money where your mouth is when it comes to you being a DJ and a record producer...but i thought better of it, cause it's not worth it-

Flame on my son...


hmmm. WOW. Sifolis, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings by agreeing with the others about the source and style of game content. It is my opinion that games are more about perspective and relevance than orginality. That's it -- it is just an opinion.
I value the opinions of the other people on the board because they are creative and have merit. At times I disagree with what is posted and am in the habit of posting a counter position. I do not preface my disagreement with a disclaimer because I do not expect that people will think that I am accusing them of: lying; being stupid; being fat and ugly; or even having the wrong opinion. I asumed that this was understood. Since I didn't say so, however, I apologize.

As for fantasy castles -- I was thinking about it today on a trip to a client in Windsor. Domes -- like Atlantis perhaps. Problem is that they would be more susceptible to standard seige weapons. I still think the basic castle works. Defends well against the ground assault. Other procedures/defences can be put in place for aerial attack -- a garrison of aerial units, magic defences, gravity zones, no air above the city/castle.
(So I don't get hassled by the grammar police I have two intentional sentence fragments in the paragraph above, and am missing an article. Those are just the ones that I know about. It was stylistic.) :)


1) I'm not as serious as you think. I was just accepting your invitation to argue via the internet. Also, to let you know that it just isn't tolerated here to be mean. I said "take it from me" because the same stuff happened not that long ago, and I was playing the role you are right now. These are nice people that want to talk about gaming without being bashed by people...

2) Good for you. I applaude your success, because I love music and want to see it grow in all forms. I love the art of turntablism, but sadly am not good at it. So instead, I play drum and bass. And throw shows booking artists of world reknown. I played with robots at The Source with Andy C not that long ago. It's true that there are lot's of people that don't know my name though, and I am a smaller fish...but do you honestly think my name is DJ Scott Free? So how would you know? Also, I am not a "wigger" as you put it. In fact, I'm wearing a suit right now. Sorry everyone else...I know I promised not to talk about this stuff on here.

The reason I'm on this post is to find out when you'll write the definitive article about finding time to do all that work on world building without taking ideas from other sources. I need time management! I really want to read someething like that, and so asked you if you would write it right off the bat.

But, I suppose this may just be my blatant "i'm better than you" attitude talking.


Not you dude..i read your post and it wasnt ill-formed or rude. it was simply a other-view. and thats what i was here to read as well as any posts from those who feel they have an original post.

perhaps i came off as an ass, but thats only after the fact of people being rude. hey, im a jerk...what can i say.

but Gill, it wasnt really pointed at you...there was one or two people who actually posted polite and nice. thats cool. the rest jumped on the wagon and started a fire in its flat-bed. they just wanted to be bullies. and frnakly, i have never felt afriad of a bully or online-twerp. im a gorgeous dude with spunk and skill. im a light-show and a fire-cracker. so if i go off-color and start flipping the finger to the bird-minded types of this forum, im sorry. i truly wish to share info, read people's ideas, etc. hell, i lurked here for days , reading every post on the site before i even posted.

i saw people here were of all types (some losers, some winners, some boring, some a pack full of fun) and i decided it was time to post sumthing, so i posted a peice on original realms...saddly, most people came back with dumb shit. so i went off and poked fun at them.

im not upset...cus im a laughing guy.
im not fat...cus well, im not.
im not hurt, cus i dont get hurt, i hurt those who get hurt.
and im not mad...unless your using the "other" definition.

im just a silly, wiggly lil mouthy guy who spends his life working, playing and having fun. i strongly ask you see that, and continue posting openly, without stupidity or rib-shots over typos and quick-spelt words. im no english teacher, im no body but me. im a dude whos loud and proud to be who i am. and i dont "start" fights online, i simply return the gesture with more energy.

thanks for being a good guy.

Okay ... Sifolis ... I just saw your above post to SF. Put a sock in the attitude and tell us about your good ideas -- specifically.

Step up and post an article with details and thought out conclusions. Take a look at some of the articles posted by Scott Free, Calamar, Cocytus, and others. They have ideas that we can use and concepts that we can debate.

What is your creative process? What is contained in these 8 books of your RPG? Answer some questions for me because I don't know how else to respond to your article. You have put forward the opinion that original content is better than any setting that relies on pre-made worlds or "standard fantasy" concepts. Okay. What now? You need to give us more to talk about.

This is exactly why Cocytus opened up the idea of the castle and setting assumptions. Swords are also another fantasy assumption. (BTW -- did anyone see the trailer for Ultra Violet where one of the characters has a serrated sword -- WHAT UP WID DAT? The mighty breadknife of slaughter? The battle scenes must be very long as people spend time sawing through each other. ;)

Good -- I'm glad we are on the same page. You stepped over the line with SF though -- I think an apology would be appropriate. Thanks.

You know...I never thought about swords. When trying to make things original I always look to the bigger picture first for some reason. I never thought about changeing something so basic as the sword...

a post about time managment on making a realm? hmm, that would prolly be a good artical to write. but i refuse to write "articals' untill i got the time to do so. like i said, im at work, and producing an artical is alot more work then bashing these keys and mind-numbing speeds without puase or back-thought.

i will tell you how i found most of the time.
1-when i was younger, before i knocked a chick up with my little prince of a son, I had time.

2-late at night..i often have a choice. sleep 8 hours and wake up fresh. or sleep 2-4 hours and spend the rest of the night mixing music or working on game stuff.

i admit, it all came about after years and years of playing. most of the world built itself over the years, players would offer up information that came to be factual. adventures became historic moments, adding to the richness of the realm. but mostly, all my ideas in my realm came from writing stupid stories all my life.

someday ill sit down and write an artical in true form. somthing that has no errors, no typos, no mispelt words...but for now im at work, and im wasting to much time being a dick. so ill say

dj-free...rock on with your style and your flow. i dont mind one way or another. as for your kind warning on how people wont allow my type of talk, thanks, ive been booted from countless online-holes.

but i really didnt mean to be overly-mean. just a big dick

Sorry...I got confused when you said you'd whup my punk head. Fair enough...hatchet buried.

Hey, Sif, chill, man. We aren't all...whatever you say we are. Gilgamesh and I actually *have been* English teachers in the past. I don't expect you to be impressed (feeling sorry for us would be a more appropriate reaction, I think).

I don't actually disagree with anything you say in your post at the top of the thread. I did get a little ruffled by what seemed to me to be your combative attitude, but I guess that's just my problem. I know a lot of folks who put an awful lot of work into their games, and I just bristle at sweeping statements about how "everything sucks" (maybe not what you were trying to say, but kind of how I took it).

I apologize for my snarky comment about the copy editor. Really. It's just that it's hard to take someone very seriously when they're typing phonetically (which I was willing to believe you were doing -- it's quite common among people who type at great speed, and I do it myself).

If your setting is as good as you say it is, well, I look forward to it. I think Gil's system really may well revolutionize the way RPGs are played, and I'm quite excited about it. I'm not trying to discourage you, either -- if your system sparks a revolution of its own, that would be exciting, too. And I'd pay to play it.

we have a few swords n other weapons that are self-brewed, some of my favs are

1-Blades of Clevercleave. They can not fumble. rolls of 1 are also seen as natrual rolls of 20. they were created for a vast war between the humans and elvs. the elvs made them to insure no elf would die by accident, or friendly fire (since elvs who die violently are often returned to the world as a lesser being, or worse, an elf that knowns no happyness (hence drow).

2-Leaf blades. Dragon mag had recently made an item called the leaf blade and it pissed me off, but we had them for years. sure they dont do what Drag-mag says they do, but they are still cool. its a blade thats made with leaves tainted with steel. the blade is limp, and looks dredfully harmless in the hands of those who are not skilled in the leaf-blade. one who lacks the ability to use it will simply see it flop about like a big green fish attached to a handle. but those who do use them with skill, or are trained in the leaf blade, can deliver double the attacks as per normal. the blade flips and bends with great speed, allowing double slashing attachs with each swing.

3-The cunning Katana. these blades (only three were made) were gifts from Khocheto (emporor of the futal oger-magi empire Komhono)to his three most skilled warrirors. any warrior that uses it with no wep-skills can use it as if specilized. and specilized warrior using it can use it as a master. any master using it can cuase "save-vs-death" on any rolls of natrual 20 (at -4).

i gotta go...time to go home. i woulda loved putting sum back story into the weapons, but im out the door and on my way home to record a new song with the guys.


and dj-free...i did say sorry right? if sorry. but you should be too, since i was only fighting back

Seeing that I have a little over an hour left at work, I think that I'll respond to your... writings.

First of all, if someone states that you are acting immature and throwing a fit and you respond with "Oh ya? Now THIS is throwing a fit!" and cuss a whole bunch, it just proves that you are immature. It doesn't help your argument and it demeans you in the eyes of everyone who reads this.

Using vulgar insults and cussing a lot will do nothing but get what you have written erased from this site or banned from it (young people do come here after all), thus wasting your time and our patience.

I think that 13 people working on one project is a bit excessive. Maybe that's because I have only written in story (or debate) form instead of roleplaying game mechanic form. But I can see how a rule book can take multiple people to get it right. So my bad on that.

BTW, I don't steal from other realms, if you are in fact talking solely about using published roleplaying material. I do take ideas from books (novels), movies, stories, and the real world. I have used ideas in the past from different published adventures, I usually do this by reading the back cover and then writing an adventure based off of it. This is called Trolling for Ideas and is widely used in various forms by most artists.

You ask me why I'm rude? In what way was I rude? I didn't cuss or insult you at all. I did disagree with you though... maybe in your mind that makes me rude. I do admit that my second post was a bit harsher than normal, but it was in response to your less than endearing ranting and is understandable.

You're upset that I (and a few others) assumed that your rant included everything, thus in effect giving us the impression that you were under the mistaken assumption that you can be creative in a vacuum. It's not possible and that's why we responded the way that we did.

Maybe if you had taken a little more time to make your original article more intelligent and clear, then you wouldn't have gotten the responses that you have.

It seems to me that people who boast excessively about their prowess, as you do, tend to fall extremely short of average. Just an observation...

"why are you so fast to grab anything you can to smash those who enjoy a common hobby?"

I don't normally smash people, especially other gamers. Disagreeing with someone and debating things with them, arguing if you insist, is perfectly acceptable as long as both parties act in a mature, professional manner, which is why I haven't stooped to cussing and insulting you overly much so far, I am used to dealing with adults.

If two people believe in ardently in opposing viewpoints, then they will each argue in favor for their viewpoint. Some people do this in a civilized fashion, and some people do it with insults and invective. I am the former and you are rather obviously the latter.

You don't seem to have a lot of potential, but you do have some, and I hope that one day you can grow into it. ;-)

"Why if I thought we weren't friends, I just don't think I could bear it."

as for being a real english teacher...that fricken rules. i cant spell to sell my soul...but i read non-stop and enjoy nothing but the proper use of spoken word. im more of an orator then a typest. i know, you must find my schooling to be back-wood. and it was.

lucky for me everything me and my boys make for viewing outside of our crappy domincile is edited by a wonderfully skilled set of editors who take the energy and time needed to lasso my loose touch and turn it into a finished peice worth reading. i wont claime to be an english major, but when i need to, i can write a nice peice...just takes time and spell-check. but here i bang out words fast. i meandor and babble through grammar, foul banter n slander like a river at times, but mostly i just ramble towards my point for fun. seriously out now. almost a half hour late for reaching the door. i just felt bad and wanted to clean up a little. since i saw english teachers were actually here...and it may sound like a joke, but its not, i got huge respect for any teacher that dont teach gym. screw gym.

well, potential or not- i have spent my life creating, paintings, albums, stories, two musicals, three published comic books, and a wonderful son. so i see it as ive spent my life creating good things.

and as for my first post lacking clearity on what i ment, re-read states three times, in full sentences, that i was only talking about stealing from published works of game-books and game-mods.

its all there..plain and simple. im only being nice cus i like the site, and know that i am the newbie here. trust me..i fully see things as i was the one being mature sorry if i started to use vulgarity to amuse myself..its simply how i am. im a funny guy, i assure you. and though you cant see that here, through this sort of me..if you knew who i was, you would be like "uh o, thats him being him, for laughs and evil grins"

so i was the bigger man and became save what? i assure you its not face in the face of faceless people online...

and i didnt brag about my prowess...but if i was going to, id mention all the artistic things i have done that made me feel proud enough to talk openly about my world.
but so be it...nuff said.

Evening chaps.

Did I miss anything?

Not much really. Just a little flame skirmish, but it seems to have died down. How was your day?

Sif drew a chuckle from Morbus, despite the prominent DO NOT FEED THE MORBUS signs all over the site.

I am switching to fire-retardant underpants.

Oh, same old same old.

Anyhow, time I got some shut-eye. 11:30pm over here.

Nighty night.

You know, at risk of being called a 'gay-ass' or something, I did wonder whether 'Sifolis' was actually a mispelling of 'Syphilis'


What exactly am I apologizing for? All I did was respond to your origianl post in a somewhat flipant manner...but then I expressed an interest in the topic and tried to move on with the conversation. You threw the first stone my friend...don't hold your breath for that apology.

Wow! Where are you writing from? China? this popped up at 1638 hours over here!

I live in the land of cricket, tea and scones, and stiff upper lips.


So... are you English, Scottish, Irish, or a mix?

Man it would be cool to roleplay in London! That would rule! Or in a castle in Scotland...

"O.k. guys, as you sneak up to the castle that looks like this one, the weather is humid and misty, kinda like it is outside right now."

Talk about setting the mood...

You've got it made man...

I have an English identity although descended from Welsh miners on my father's side (his father was a miner, and his father before him etc).

I understand my paternal grandmother was from irish gypsy stock.

On my mother's side there's some Hugenot ancestry, an ancestor who was hanged for piracy, and another who was one of a small handful of survivors of the Isandhlwana massacre (ever see the film 'Zulu Dawn'?)

Sadly, I don't live in a castle. But there are quite a few in my area. There's a Roman fort a stone's throw away and a little further away is Dover castle.

Usually when I 'game' in a castle I'm wearing chainmail. For real.

Ever try climbing a castle wall in the dark wearing chainmail and a full-face helm? That's what one of our clients wanted us to do for a scripted event once. Oh, and we had to jump over a flaming trench as well.

It sounds exciting but I must admit it was a bit of a brown-trouser moment when we actually came to do it. Surprisingly no-one ended up in hospital.

A very interesting link, LG. Thanks.

You're welcome!

Just wanted to add a quick note:
In many sci-fi books and movies, a lot of elements (maybe most things) are kept "normal" as we know them today (or maybe left "standard sci-fi fare"). I've learnt this is for two reasons: First, as was mentioned, to enable the audience to relate to the plot/environment/characters/whatever; and second, in order to increase the Alien-ness (read: "originality") of important setting/culture/character/other elements by way of contrast.
The same is true, IMO, with fantasy settings.
For example, turning all castles into heavily-built, magically protected domes can be enough of a change (with the appropriate changes to warfare) that, for example, it might be better to keep the feudal system so the players can access the world more easily.

Gilgamesh, didn't see your post regarding the dome when writing mine, sorry. How's that RP system of yours turning out?

Anyway, can I take it that everyone's cool now?

I guess a careful welcome to sifolis would be appropriate about now...

Gaming in English castles: cool.
Gaming in English weather: drafty and wet (hence, not so cool).
No still-standing, well-groomed castles here, but I do have loads of Roman, Ottoman, Crusader and other ruins to run around in. Not that I do that (especially not while wearing armor, or is it armour?)

It's 17:11 right now here, anyone else wants to compare time zones?

Nice family history, LG; mine isn't nearly as interesting, but I have mitigating circumstances.

15:59 here in chilly, wet Britain, where we have the only correct clocks in the world ;-)

My mother has done a lot of research into our family history. She has a huge amount of information on it going back to the 16th century.

No decent castles? What a pity. Jordan has Kerak and Syria has Krak Des Chevaliers (just to rub salt in the wound....)

I wouldn't want to wear armour in your sort of climate. We did a show in southern Italy once and that was bad enough!

Speaking of which, if you are ever in Rome check out Ostia - near the west coast. The ruins of an entire ancient Roman port. You can easily spend a whole day exploring the place.

I guess a careful welcome to sifolis would be appropriate about now...

What, now that he's had his ritual initiation beating?

Do you think he's had enough, or should we kick him around some more?

I had to endure a ten-post argument with RG when I first turned up....

hey, what can I say.... I'm soft

In light of the previous discussion, the recently released Grammar Fascist is awesome.

I welcome the here and I refuse to

Game on...

and word worms.

Arrggghhh .. you stole my Domes! ;) (Just Kidding)

Thanks for asking about the game -- I have been late on a few self-imposed deadlines, but things are still moving well. I have a beta-manual but want to package it with an adventure that makes the concepts a bit more accessible. If you want one, send me an email with your name and shipping info and I'll forward you a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement). Once I have that I will ship the manual to you at no charge (other than the promise to provide honest feedback).
The manual will arive 8 weeks after whatever date I promise it. Sorry -- work has been hell. The accounting software I support just went through a major upgrade and now they have announced that they will no longer support earlier versions. We have 300 clients to upgrade by Jan 1, 2007 with the average upgrade taking two to three days. That's not to mention the bugs! Oh... the bugs...

LG -- that is some really fun looking stuff. I'd come and play but live across the pond in Canada. My parents and relatives are all from England -- mostly the South, like you. My Dad's side is from Wimbledon and London while my Mom's side is is from Sussex. I saw jousting when I was in Bournemouth and/or Braymore (I'm kinda fuzzy on the geography -- It was a few years ago). Anyhow - kudos for you. I do Japanese Martial Arts including weaponry and swordfighting. I know how fun it is to bonk people with padded sticks! :)

Everyone -- What is the coolest place you have ever ran a RPG session? I have run a few in the backwoods of Canada, and also played on a boat once. I'm not sure the setting helped though, because it only momentarily coincides with the action.

Anyhow -- I'm glad the weekend is here.

a huge underground drainage passage (large enough to park hal-o-dozen 16-wheelers). It was spooky down there and we played by Tiki-touch (spelling? bah who cares, you all suck)...

anyways, very cool idea but the rushing water cuased everyone to yell over the noise, and one of our female players decided to admit to a under-ground-phobia type thing about 20 minutes into set up...needless to say; great idea...bad implication of said idea.

o well...i felt like a young Tom hanks.

I was thinking about the whole dome thing, protection from ariel attacks in a fantasy world isn't something that my world usually has to consider. But the thought struck me that the onion dome minerets of Russia (or whatever it's called now) or Persia, with covered passasge ways, stone roofing on walls, ect would be an effective defense against ariel attacks without differing too much from earth norm.

Recessed arquebuses (is that right?) on pivoting and tilting platforms can provide an effective attack, assuming that there are no other magical means, and the spike or spire on top of the mineret could be fired (straight upwards only, it's true, but in the heat of combat it's easy to get confused and to lose your place. I'd say that dragons and the like are just as susceptable to that as humans are) by mechanisms hidden within the core of the towers.

"Hey! Where are we going, and what are we doing in this giant handbasket?"

A kingdom (or a people)under Seige? Sounds like it's time to either stand-and-fight or run. I'd imagin if they were to stick around and hold the current fort, you wouldn't be looking for a place to "retreat to"...I dunno your setting or the limits of their magics, tech or building skills. I will say a few times seige had cuased certain civiliations to flee to more "solid defence grounds" and there are contingiousy (you KNOW i can't spell that...figure it out book-boys)plans that other races have in case of mass attack or invasion from abroad.

Two such peoples were the Darghouliens and the Wargoriens (two kingdoms that grew side by side from barberic roots, into great modern kingdoms). When forced to withdraw from a horrible war between the Ogers of Boogabah, the Wargoriens and the Darghouliens had a plan. They were great workers of stone and had the forthought of such an attack for over 100 years. What they did was fortifie a mountain group with the help of Dwarven people to the north (The Grecos of Greco mountain. The kingdoms had commisioned the dwarvs to make a stronghold incase of seige. The dwarvs, not quick to interact or build for humans, did agree only after recieving the majority of the kings treasure hoards.
The mountain was rigged to do a few things in the event of an invasion from below.
1-The entrances were all long hallways, huge, wide, big enough to allow a small army to enter easy The armies of ogers seeing this rushed the bottem passages only to find that the halls led to nowhere but sealed off dead-ends. When the first wave tried to retreat they found the corridors cramped and not easy to navigate or turn-around (dumb ogers). Thats when the Humans collasped the ceilings (as designed)and crushed the first wave under tons of load-stone.

2-Those who escaped, or didnt attack yet, moved in slowly, confused and angered. the dust and dirt was heavy in the air cuasing the ogers to second guess direction and action.
Then the humans delivered the next defence measure. Dwarven made avalanches were unleashed by the humans, the side of the mountain dumped tons of rock ontop of those who still fought forward. The ogers were devistated by this blow and were lost for any cognitive battle plans in the chaos.
After the rumbling stomped and the air cleared slightly, the humans rushed to the arrow plats and fired from the mountain sides. Thousands of arrows rained down , impaling the wounded and confused remaining orger armies.

3-Ogers being ogers didn't retreat, instead they pushed forward and started to climb (since the only viewable entrances had collapsed). The main front of human soilders then began pouring from behind the oger armies. They poured from secretly hidden passages behind the oger's poorly held lines. Between archers picking off those close to the mountain's sides, and well armed soilders hacking from behind the now panicking ogers...the battle lasted less then a hanful of hours.

The humans lost minimum lives, the ogers were destroyed. The humans had to live with the thought that the dwarvs had saved their people, and pride eats at them till this day over 100 years later, but they still live.
The humans also learned alot from the dwarven way of war; Risk as little lives as possible, attack from afar, cuase the most lives of your enemies to meet final doom before you even physically enter the battle. All these are dwarven philosophies and attribute to their strong held notions that lives are presious and shouldnt be wasted.

Of course such things only work if your people have access to huge works of stone and complex design. Also it helps if your enemy is stupid and reluctant to also need many decades to build such a fortress.

The Elves of my land also have a plan for escaping a mass attack from those outside thier nation. The elvs never wish to risk death, for death is the second side to the coin of life.
The elvs , having control of acient magics from over 25,000 years ago (age of magics), have a plan for escape.
A spell crafted by the greatest wizards of their people, long before humans even had access to magics on grand scale, they enchanted the land with a dimensional effect that will tear the very nation from the world and place it within an astrel pocket perminitly.
The magics used cuased the very woods to become magic (hence why elven forest are so magical in my lands...Sylvan woods produce unicorns, fairies etc simply cus the entire land has been melded with magics)

If any nation or force threatend the exsistence of the elves as a whole, they would activate the spell, cuasing the land to simply pop out of the realm.
The land would never be able to return, and the elvs are not completly sure what awaits them in the pocket dimension in ways of survival and what-not, so they do not have a huge desire to use the magic.
But incase of a seig of epic size and unpresidented danger, the king would give his grand magi the order to begin the spell. The land would dissipear leaving a huge void to be filled by the surrounding crashing seas, cuasing much destruction to those left behind. tidal waves, realm-quakes, etc etc.
But the elves would be safely away from the lesser races, and they would then spend eternity as aliens of the realm...perhaps returning time to time as individuals but never as a race as a whole.

I dunno if this helped at all...prolly not. but again, im at work, and bord. 11 hours of nothing but desk, coffee and thoughts of dungeons-n-dragons.


Calamar, you have to remember that the main purpose of the dome (or of castle walls) is to keep the enemy out. Minarets are well and good, but if the enemy can land his troops in the courtyard, you're gonna get it.

How about moving this discussion to a new thread, though? morbus?

And I'm really interested in the sword thing, too...

A dome of any size would need magical reinforcment to be stable agaisnt the smallest attacks from above, seeing as the math behind such a structure is very dependant on "not being wacked" with force.

unless of course, you dont care bout physics.

What the... make yer own damn thread, bub ;)


i just thought you could transport all the existing posts in the subject intact, oh great master of the Grene :)

Engineering physics don't interest me much. Too much math for me. I view architecture mostly as a visual aid to help define the culture of the setting to the characters. In that sense, onion domes and mineretes work just fine.

As for courtyards, those are easily defendable from walls and towers.

Just a thought...

I'm with Calamar...down with math.

I suppose one of the nicest things about running a fantasy campaign is that when ever something comes up that math or physics or whatever doesn't allow, you can just add magic and it works again. That tends to "over-magic" the setting in my opinion though (i run typically low-magic campaigns), so I compensate the other way...I took away dragons, flying spells, and all that.

When it comes down to it the campaigns I run are barely even fantasy these days if you look at it that way. Perhaps a conversation for a different thread though...I've seen people discuss "when does D&D stop being D&D?" before...but when does fantasy stop being fantasy?

{small voice from the back of the class}

"Um....I like maths, actually....I think we should have extra maths homework..."